EFPs; the new AK-47?

[Abu Buckwheat]

There is a quote in a Time article by Bob Baer regarding EFP's worth sharing:

Fascinating discussion. I am not sure how accurate that suggestion is about all EFPs in Iraq being Iranian. I have imagery of Sunnah Insurgent EFPs that are crude, much larger than the Iranian EFPs and made in a local machine shop. Unfortunately, they work too.

With regards to the entire discussion about the EFPs being the new AK, I agree that the Stinger analogy is close but EFPs were used extensively by Hezbolah against the Israelis in their 18 year insurgency. I think the Iraqi/Iranian made examples are having some impact like Hezbollah's, but not in numbers strong enough to be real deal killers with the theater level impact that the Stingers had on the Soviets. Their deployment just racheted up the level of stress for convoys, defeated heavy tank units and caused a new and significant risk when out of the wire.

Personally, I think 122mm/155mm IEDs tripled up or quadrupled up into Super IEDs are the real AKs (machetes ) of the future as they are cheap simple and have killed FAR more of us than EFP have. Now if EFP manufacturing and distribution by China or Iran goes global and you can buy them on the black market for $10 like an RPG round then we will have real trouble in our future.

[120mm]

Fascinating discussion. I am not sure how accurate that suggestion is about all EFPs in Iraq being Iranian. I have imagery of Sunnah Insurgent EFPs that are crude, much larger than the Iranian EFPs and made in a local machine shop. Unfortunately, they work too.

With regards to the entire discussion about the EFPs being the new AK, I agree that the Stinger analogy is close but EFPs were used extensively by Hezbolah against the Israelis in their 18 year insurgency. I think the Iraqi/Iranian made examples are having some impact like Hezbollah's, but not in numbers strong enough to be real deal killers with the theater level impact that the Stingers had on the Soviets. Their deployment just racheted up the level of stress for convoys, defeated heavy tank units and caused a new and significant risk when out of the wire.

Personally, I think 122mm/155mm IEDs tripled up or quadrupled up into Super IEDs are the real AKs (machetes ) of the future as they are cheap simple and have killed FAR more of us than EFP have. Now if EFP manufacturing and distribution by China or Iran goes global and you can buy them on the black market for $10 like an RPG round then we will have real trouble in our future.

I have to agree with Abu, here. In my guise as an Airplane mechanic, I come into contact with many talented machinists who can make absolutely *anything*, regardless of the available equipment.

One man, in particular comes to mind, who, on his breaks, turned a little solid chunk of titanium into a sphere of titanium, using only a small gas torch, a hammer and an anvil. He did this, just to prove it could be done, as "everyone knows" it is impossible.

I also know a man who makes ultra-precise machine lathes and end-mills out of pieces of junk. I've been in Iraqi machine shops, and I don't see why they cannot make anything they'd like to, provided they're competent, creative, and know where to look for the science side of it.

[Stan]

I was wondering if there's a reason they can't be portable and hand held: expansion, holding the disk on prevents the proper formation, the amount of explosive used creates too much heat/shockwaves/whatever.

Hey RA,
Most of the military-grade commercially-available charges are not only portable, a few will fit in your coat pocket I PM'd you the data sheet.

We normally hide behind a large dirt mound using RFDs from say 200 meters... There's a significant amount of back blast, and, not exactly something you wanna be holding

[Schmedlap]

In theory I agree with you. On the other hand, what is this mob going to do when they run into a smaller force with automatic weapons? Will they have the discipline or rage to take the mass casualties before they are in the thick of fighting and unable to flee forcing all to stay in the fight?

I don't think any force is ever going to be armed entirely with machetes. I think the machete will become more prevalent. And I am sure that a mob of thugs will have no qualms about sending some 12-year-old boys to take the brunt of the AK fire, while using a handful of their own AKs to maintain some standoff for the adults, until the opposing guns run out of ammo, and then hack away at the group of thugs that just went black on 7.62.

I have imagery of Sunnah Insurgent EFPs that are crude, much larger than the Iranian EFPs and made in a local machine shop. Unfortunately, they work too.

I've seen them and seen vehicles hit by them. They are not nearly as devastating as EFPs and I'm pretty sure that they tend to hit their targets less often. But they clearly appear to be attempting to create them. In that regard, I've been wondering if we will be able to quell the Sunni insurgency and "Sunni" terrorists before they obtain this capability and wondering if Iran would see fit to start arming Sunnis with these just to stick another thorn in our butts.

Personally, I think 122mm/155mm IEDs tripled up or quadrupled up into Super IEDs are the real AKs (machetes ) of the future as they are cheap simple and have killed FAR more of us than EFP have.

Part of the value of EFPs is that they can be fairly quickly and more easily emplaced (no need to transport bulky, heavy munitions or to exert the time and energy to dig an 8 foot hole without being caught). And so long as an outside, well-financed supplier is willing to give them away (similar to the US with its Stingers, and now Iran with its EFPs), then they remain, for practical purposes, "cheap."

[Stan]

Part of the value of EFPs is that they can be fairly quickly and more easily emplaced (no need to transport bulky, heavy munitions or to exert the time and energy to dig an 8 foot hole without being caught). And so long as an outside, well-financed supplier is willing to give them away (similar to the US with its Stingers, and now Iran with its EFPs), then they remain, for practical purposes, "cheap."

Hey Schmedlap !
Well, you certainly have my attention!
Some of the EFPs while by no means heavy, are not small, and hiding something with a 10 to 12 inch diameter must be a slight challenge. Granted, you wouldn't want it under 8 feet of dirt, as it probably won't work very well.
Could I ask for some anecdotal evidence of cheap Iranian EFPs being given away?

Regards, Stan

[Rank amateur]

Thanks Stan. Very interesting.

I have to agree with Abu, here. In my guise as an Airplane mechanic, I come into contact with many talented machinists who can make absolutely *anything*, regardless of the available equipment.

I agree, but after two minutes on wikipaedia my list of amateur expertises now includes metallurgy. annealing of the cap is complicated and it's needed to increase ductility.

If I understand correctly, and it's possible that I don't, if they don't change the metallurgical properties of the copper disk, it'll fracture instead of producing the shape needed to puncture armor. (Or at least heavy armor.) If the cap is the production bottleneck, however, I'm sure Iran is stockpiling them in dispersed locations and there's no reason Iran couldn't have people smuggle the caps in their pocket and have the rest of the device made locally.

[Stan]

Thanks Stan. Very interesting.



I agree, but after two minutes on wikipaedia my list of amateur expertises now includes metallurgy. annealing of the cap is complicated and it's needed to increase ductility.

If I understand correctly, and it's possible that I don't, if they don't change the metallurgical properties of the copper disk, it'll fracture instead of producing the shape needed to puncture armor. (Or at least heavy armor.) If the cap is the production bottleneck, however, I'm sure Iran is stockpiling them in dispersed locations and there's no reason Iran couldn't have people smuggle the caps in their pocket and have the rest of the device made locally.

RA, I don't have my A&P like 120 obviously does, but as a professional mechanic in strange places (countries), we heat the material, perhaps hammer for annealing and quench... and.... voila

EDIT: Rapid cooling will create harder metal and slow cooling will result in a softer material.

Regards, Stan

[Schmedlap]

Some of the EFPs while by no means heavy, are not small, and hiding something with a 10 to 12 inch diameter must be a slight challenge.

Obviously, yes, but smaller than a trunk full of 155's and easier to conceal given that the camouflage is often part of the finishing process before it gets handed off to the cell that employs it.

Could I ask for some anecdotal evidence of cheap Iranian EFPs being given away?

I'm neither an Iranian nor a Shia militiaman, so I cannot give the anecdotal evidence. But if the Iranian pays for the materials and manufacturing process of the EFP, and then hands it off to the Shia militia, then, for the Shia militia, the EFP is cheap, since it is given to them. Kind of like if I were a rich kid and daddy bought me a sports car. For me, it would be cheap, since he incurs the expense.

[J.C.]

Talking about diameters, hiding, and logistics we just found a real piece of work in my AO today. The quality was class A work. 10 in diameter made to look like Iraqi curbs. I if you've been to urban centers in Iraq you will have probably seen their curds. They look like 1 1/2 foot by 3 feet cubes. the problem is they are torn up every where and then placed on top of the medians. During an average patrol I will see any where between 35-50 of these blocks in the medians of Known EFP areas.

Whats more scary is they have hidden the command wires using the spiders web of Iraqi electrical grids occansionally almost making them impossible to spot and run them back to a safe vantage point. The worst I have seen is a single array ( 1 fake block) with 4 8in plates inside with 2 single array 10 in kickers placed around. We would have had a real bad day had they not been found.

Some are so well hidden that they blend in seamlessly with damaged curbs and use a PIR sensor with time delay to catch the later vicks in a convoy.
Others which are made of class A stuff have been set upwards of 30 ft of the road or placed behind Alaska barriers!! No way to see the device or command wire. Trust me they will go through it, they will then go through our armor.

EFPs are a shia weapons, never seen a Sunni EFP, maybe a crappy shape charge, but not an EFP. Another fun fact EFPs where developed by a west pointer for use in oil drilling to punch through difficult rock and give less back blast and heat. Imagine that oil bitting us in the butt agian.

Logistical all the quality stuff is importated, sometimes in components. But, thats rare and we can tie those to high level guys known to have had training out of country some where to the east I've also seen mosques used as drop of points as well as cars as mobile cashe. The machinary to make the disk is also limited or the expertise. Through CSI stuff you can often trace the disk like bullets back to the same press or milling machine.

Someone mention quick drop off, it takes 2 minitues to set up a LRCT EFP. They see you coming cause misdirection and place it, bad day ensues.

[Stan]

Obviously, yes, but smaller than a trunk full of 155's and easier to conceal given that the camouflage is often part of the finishing process before it gets handed off to the cell that employs it.

Indeed smaller than a trunk full of 6 inch rounds. Why easier to conceal a 10 inch EFP (IED) which has a 'singular directional lethality' (for the most part) than say a 155 projectile under a foot of dirt with not only a blast effect, but also 50% fragmentation to boot ? What camouflage is often part of the package ?

I'm neither an Iranian nor a Shia militiaman, so I cannot give the anecdotal evidence. But if the Iranian pays for the materials and manufacturing process of the EFP, and then hands it off to the Shia militia, then, for the Shia militia, the EFP is cheap, since it is given to them. Kind of like if I were a rich kid and daddy bought me a sports car. For me, it would be cheap, since he incurs the expense.

Sorry, wasn't trying to imply you were Iranian or otherwise. My Bad

The last time I read anything that remotely implied Iranian involvement in EFP manufacturing was late 2007 where 'US Officials' barely indicated that the growing body of evidence was based on machine-tooled parts discovered during forensics and post blast. Since I more or less do post blast for a living, I'd have to quote 120mm's recent post about individual abilities. There's no 'body of evidence' to convince us that Iran's machinists are, or were, better than say Iraq's. Banging out (no pun intended) soft materials in one's garage on even a cheap lathe with a washing machine motor is child's play.

On the other hand, scooping or spooning out HE from UXO to be later used in EFP production can be a smiggin delicate (we have several examples of folks that never made it past the Segal-syndrome of cooking or melting HE our of projectiles... Saved the legal system mucho bucks and we just buried the remains

[Stan]

Good Post, JC !

Talking about diameters, hiding, and logistics we just found a real piece of work in my AO today. The quality was class A work. 10 in diameter made to look like Iraqi curbs.

As I recall from a 06 report, CEXC's IED analysts not only found concrete street-side curbing, but also rendered safe sheep and dog carcasses

[bourbon]

If you mean the infrared trigger device used to kill Alfred Herrhausen, then nothing new in this part of the world. We've seen far more complicated devices assembled by disgruntled security personnel as early as 1987 and as late as 1991. Ours were in apartment buildings bringing down 7 stories with no apparent target nor advanced warning or threat.

Yeah, the Herrhausen device. From my understanding it was an IR trigger hooked up satchel of explosives and a copper plate. A spotter armed the device by remote as the car was approaching, and the Mercedes passing through the IR beam triggered the bomb sending a copper projectile into rear-passenger door. It sounded similar to these EFP's Iraq.

Security personnel putting bombs in apartment buildings? You were in Moscow during September 1999?

[Rank amateur]

Thanks JC. Very interesting; keep finding them. Stay safe.

[120mm]

Thanks Stan. Very interesting.



I agree, but after two minutes on wikipaedia my list of amateur expertises now includes metallurgy. annealing of the cap is complicated and it's needed to increase ductility.

If I understand correctly, and it's possible that I don't, if they don't change the metallurgical properties of the copper disk, it'll fracture instead of producing the shape needed to puncture armor. (Or at least heavy armor.) If the cap is the production bottleneck, however, I'm sure Iran is stockpiling them in dispersed locations and there's no reason Iran couldn't have people smuggle the caps in their pocket and have the rest of the device made locally.

Without going into it in detail, I can think of at least three ways you can precisely anneal a copper disk to varying degrees, using cheap, and/or free materials. I would need to waste about three EFPs to make it "right".

But that's all I'm going to say about that. A good machinist who knows basic metallurgy could turn out EFPs pretty easy, provided he had the luxury of being able to waste some material doing testing.

[Schmedlap]

Indeed smaller than a trunk full of 6 inch rounds. Why easier to conceal a 10 inch EFP (IED) which has a 'singular directional lethality' (for the most part) than say a 155 projectile under a foot of dirt with not only a blast effect, but also 50% fragmentation to boot ?

I meant easier to conceal during movement and less arduous to conceal during emplacement - see JC's previous post; it takes 2 minutes. I suspect that digging a hole for 155's takes a bit longer.

What camouflage is often part of the package ?

See JC's prior post:

10 in diameter made to look like Iraqi curbs. I if you've been to urban centers in Iraq you will have probably seen their curds. They look like 1 1/2 foot by 3 feet cubes.

They also often look like rocks. If Ali, the local EFP emplacer, has one of these in his trunk and suddenly finds himself surrounded by coalition forces who are searching vehicles and closing in, he can pop the trunk, and put the EFP on the side of the road before they get to his vehicle. JC gives lots of examples in his post of easy concealment as well. Since it looks like a cement block, rock, etc, there is a good chance that the focus of the search element is on the vehicle. They look into the trunk, see nothing, and continue on their way. On the other hand, if the trunk has 4 155mm rounds, then leaving them in the trunk or tossing them on the side of the road will probably result in either some zip ties or a bullet.

There's no 'body of evidence' to convince us that Iran's machinists are, or were, better than say Iraq's.

My information may be dated. If that is all that was in the public record as recently as late 2007, then I am not going to add to it.

[Stan]

Hey Bourbon !

Yeah, the Herrhausen device. From my understanding it was an IR trigger hooked up satchel of explosives and a copper plate. A spotter armed the device by remote as the car was approaching, and the Mercedes passing through the IR beam triggered the bomb sending a copper projectile into rear-passenger door. It sounded similar to these EFP's Iraq.

If you look back to the mid and late 80s, US Military Attachés fell victim to very similar attacks in the middle east, even with the protection of light armored vehicles. The triggers then were components from just about any Radio Shack (breaking or passing through a beam). The 'plate' was propelled through the driver's-side armor, decapitated the driver, and continued through the passenger side armor.

Someone had far too much time to think about defeating his/her target, and his target was too into his routines to pay sufficient attention !

Security personnel putting bombs in apartment buildings? You were in Moscow during September 1999?

Basically an inside job that went very wrong. Not in Moscow, but Estonia for over 10 years. We had more than a (UXO employed) detonation a day in the mid 90s (Mafia related) and in the late 90s, an IED a month. The bomb maker had an extensive engineering background placing home made linear charges on major structural foundations and also employed infrared triggers (from home alarm systems) for his VOIEDs.

[Stan]

I meant easier to conceal during movement and less arduous to conceal during emplacement - see JC's previous post; it takes 2 minutes. I suspect that digging a hole for 155's takes a bit longer.

See JC's prior post:

They also often look like rocks. If Ali, the local EFP emplacer, has one of these in his trunk and suddenly finds himself surrounded by coalition forces who are searching vehicles and closing in, he can pop the trunk, and put the EFP on the side of the road before they get to his vehicle. JC gives lots of examples in his post of easy concealment as well. Since it looks like a cement block, rock, etc, there is a good chance that the focus of the search element is on the vehicle. They look into the trunk, see nothing, and continue on their way. On the other hand, if the trunk has 4 155mm rounds, then leaving them in the trunk or tossing them on the side of the road will probably result in either some zip ties or a bullet.

Thanks for the clarification to your previous post. JC's post came well after my inquiries, hence my questions regarding your comments.

Anti-terrorism courses in the US and UK for vehicle searches typically include turning over every stone (pun intended) and bagging every cigarette butt. It shouldn't matter if the trunk is filled with stones or 155 projectiles; a search is a search. Sounds sloppy to me.

My information may be dated. If that is all that was in the public record as recently as late 2007, then I am not going to add to it.

If you have access to AKO, FBI/LEO and/or the International Bomb Data Center, you can see that there's very little to substantiate the profound comments from politicians.

Regards, Stan

[Rank amateur]

Without going into it in detail, I can think of at least three ways you can precisely anneal a copper disk to varying degrees, using cheap, and/or free materials. I would need to waste about three EFPs to make it "right".

You convinced me.

For the record I have no interest in amateur EOD.

[Schmedlap]

Anti-terrorism courses in the US and UK for vehicle searches typically include turning over every stone (pun intended) and bagging every cigarette butt.

It's just not practical in all circumstances. There are time issues and other factors. And, none of the infantrymen in any battalion that I've served in ever took an anti-terrorism course (we generally had just enough time to meet the training requirements foisted upon us by higher in time to deploy).

[Stan]

It's just not practical in all circumstances. There are time issues and other factors. And, none of the infantrymen in any battalion that I've served in ever took an anti-terrorism course (we generally had just enough time to meet the training requirements foisted upon us by higher in time to deploy).

Obviously something for another thread. However, since we've already hijacked this one, what the hey

While I fully understand that a thorough vehicle and body(ies) search for forensics is certainly not practical for an Infantryman at a road block, I'm a bit appalled to learn of the severe lack of anti-terrorist training (that's been around since 84 at Bragg). I'd have to say I would never have survived as a member of a two-man team during 3 civil wars and an 800,000-plus refugee crisis without our in-depth training programs.

Part of the real problem with EFPs is like a Russian torpedo. There's little left once fired (even though post blast ops will recover sufficient evidence (unless someone quickly performs a clean up before we arrive), there's nothing like having the real thing to examine. Our vehicle and body searches typically include the employment of X-spray that immediately indicates the presence of explosives, and what type (even if weeks old).

Pedantic attention to details may preclude permitting a potential explosives conveyance from being used again.

Regards, Stan