Brilliant, useful
Interesting, perhaps useful
Of little utility, not practical
Delusional
but I would strongly suggest that any other queries with the slightest potential for an OpSec concern be addressed in P.M.s and not on the open board.
Last edited by Ken White; 05-23-2008 at 12:49 AM. Reason: Typo
You may be right, but to a civilian you sound a lot like Kerry. Much better to sound like a winner: "It's the causalities stupid."
I have little doubt that we're taking responsibility for their security, so that ultimately we won't be responsible for their security. The problem is that security is only one thing the various factions care about. It will be bartered away numerous times, between numerous factions, in a society where deals are never ending and the only permanent things are things we don't share: family, tribe, religion etc.
a lot of civilians don't agree with you, which is my point.
Then again, one could agree that the causalities are indeed the cause...
Which doesn't mean the casualties are the causalities by any means and could mean that those who say they are the problem may be the ones who are stupid -- or maybe they just need to widen their conversational circles.
P.S.
Another PM just sent with text of first pasted
Last edited by Ken White; 05-23-2008 at 03:47 AM. Reason: P.S.
Interesting this came up, just had a discussion at work about this one. Some of the guys older than me (very few around these days) had some interesting insight on this from the SF point of view. Found it interesting they were doing the good "snake eater" thing in the bush until Big Army showed up and made them move into the stadium. Additionally the ODAs that were there when the whole Blackhawk Down thing went down they were not allowed to leave the wire, the ODAs were loaded up in their gun trucks ready to roll and were not allowed to. I found this quite interesting all things considered. Didn't mean to hijack the thread but thought this was important, considering intially it was being handled more along the COIN lines.
ODB
Exchange with an Iraqi soldier during FID:
Why did you not clear your corner?
Because we are on a base and it is secure.
Might want to check on who did what to who. Also note that the 'who went to town' issue was a 3d Ranger Bn vs others issue. The Big Army 10th Mtn QRF was stalled so Rangers could lead the way. Garrison (The SOCOM GO on the ground) not big Army, is where one needs to look...
If they'll recall, they worked for SOCOM at the time, not Big Army -- and Big Army couldn't tell MG Garrison what to do...
The issue of who went to town to help was a 3d Ranger Bn vs. everyone else issue; the big Army QRF from 10th Mountain was stopped so Rangers could lead the way. Big Army goofs it up on occasion -- so does SOCOM.
Last edited by stanleywinthrop; 05-23-2008 at 03:05 PM.
That is the point I tried to address earlier - that slides only present part of a presentation - and often not the most important part - and are therefore open to misinterpretation when divorced from the actual presentation. People these days trade and forward PP briefings all the time and I think it's wise to be cognizant of the limitations of the medium. I frankly don't like the practice yet I see it all the time.
and one that I had hoped we would see begin to be addressed through the use of newer technologies like face puppetry. The briefer would be able to give the briefing and be video taped after which the software is used to make an avatar of sorts give the brief in the different adobe or other models.
Imagine actually getting the rest of the story rather than having to wait for Paul Harvey to provide it later
It's easily doable and I agree that it might help avoid some of the selective pass on of information from such briefs by those who didn't necessarily get it in the context it was created with
Any man can destroy that which is around him, The rare man is he who can find beauty even in the darkest hours
Cogitationis poenam nemo patitur
Steve, in our AO (Jazeera area between Ramadi and Fallujah in 2005-06), I was tasked out to both our infantry battalion and as a combat augmentee to the MTT w/ IA 3-3. We had to face the unfortunate discovery of many hundreds of weapons (Glocks, mostly) intended for IA and IP personnel come up missing from a "secured" shipping crate.
This led to much gnashing of teeth and beating of breasts, but I argued that there might be a plus to this, one that (without violating OPSEC) I saw was taking place.
One of the means insurgent cadres can keep order is by having a monopoly on weapons and the materiel necessary to wage war. While many consider AK-47s "fungible" in Iraq, this isn't exactly so. There are only so many to go around, and they cost money that unemployed MAMs find difficult to obtain.
When many hundreds of AKs and Glocks (hand guns) all of a sudden flooded the local market, many dozens of insurgents from Ramadi to TQ had a commodity that made them independent of the larger insurgent network. They could go it alone, and they could do so with weapons (hand guns) that have a unique cultural meaning (a symbol of authority in Baathist Iraq, they were typically used for executions or maimings, giving the men who possessed them a totemic quality the AK itself didn't confer).
As was famously said about The Velvet Underground, few bought their records but everyone who bought one started his own band. So too with the Glocks and the AKs that entered the market. They gave those who possessed them the ability to strike out on their own, with their own bands of recruited MAMs also dedicated to competing in the Darwinian world of illicit fuel sales, contraband smuggling, IED emplacement, etc, etc, etc.
As the network fractured, they were under less tight control by less intelligent and sophisticated SULs. In other words, a net gain for the good guys as the attrition carried itself out to natural conclusions.
C
Ken White,
Thanks for the other half of the story. I many times post these to get more than one perspective. It's always interesting to see how different the story is when looked at from multiple view points. Hence the reason for always second sourcing and never rely on the first report it is aways wrong (well 95% of the time).
Cavguy,
Wasn't throwing the blame on "Big Army", I haven't forgot that, that is where I grew my roots so to speak. If it came across as shotgun generalization it was intended to, it was a perspective from some of the guys at work.
ODB
Exchange with an Iraqi soldier during FID:
Why did you not clear your corner?
Because we are on a base and it is secure.
Sam Liles
Selil Blog
Don't forget to duck Secret Squirrel
The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.
Canon, cannon -- who's counting....
I follow the logic and see the advantage, for now, but wonder if this may just be storing up a bigger problem for later. Not so much relating to the increased weapon pool but at some point - if the US forces are to extricate themselves and go home - political agreements need to be reached with armed groups and they need to be disbanded and/or integrated into the IA/IP. At this point dealing with a limited number of groups, with the control to make their agreements stick, is going to be much easier than thousands of individuals all fighting their own private war.
Last edited by JJackson; 05-24-2008 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Thought some punctuation might be helpful
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