Saving their Souls in Fallujah?

[marct]

Hi 120,

I'm simply referring to the large amount of people who are not associated, or do not submit to the discipline of their "religion".

Ah, okay, that makes a lot more sense . The term "atheist" is a tricky one, simply because it has been used as a pejorative by so many people to apply to any group that disagrees with them. Personally, I wouldn't use it to apply to people who don't "submit to the discipline of their "religion"", the technical term would be "heretic" assuming they did not meet the bare minimum disciplinary requirements. As a note, I'm not using "heretic" in the pejorative sense, I'm using it in the technical sense of one who exercise their free will to choose to do or not do something that is (or is not) mandated by their religion.

That first sense, however, of being "unassociated" is much more tricky and, I suspect, totally inaccurate in a number of cases. Their appears to be a presumption of association with an organized group, a "religion" in the sociological sense, but this is not necessarily a requirement for someone who is not an atheist. This is the "gray area" where we see the overlap of "spirituality" and "religion" with the first having to do with an individuals relationship with their god(s) and the second having to do with their relationship to other humans.

I tend to include those who belong to "invented" religions, such as Wicca, etc... (Show me their "Wiccan" heritage, and I'll think otherwise....) I guess if pressed, I'd tend to include the Easter/Christmas Christians as being functionally atheist.

Got time for a couple of pints, Drew ? If you want the Wiccan linkages, read Ecstacies and The Night Battles both by Carlo Ginzburg. The specific linkage runs from the Benandanti, to Aradia and then to Gardnerian Wicca (there are also other lines as well, but none of them are well known). I also ran across groups during my MA fieldwork that I could track back over 500 years in continuous operation. To be totally fair, however, the groups that actually can be traced back are in a definite minority; probably less that 1% of the current Wiccan population.

Combine this with the "American Taliban Is Consuming the Country" drivel that is being spouted by neo-atheists to rally their "base".

Yeah, I've heard that drek as well. I tend to view it as just another example of "religion" in the secular, non-theistic sense; "atheistic" in the sense that they don't personalize their "deities", but definitely "theistic" in the sense that they make a "god" out of political correctness.

The US is demonstrably becoming less religious, and less conservative. Despite the "double-speak" one hears from the anti-religious bigots.... One only needs to watch a movie, surf the web, listen to contemporary music, or read books on the bestseller list to understand that simple fact.

If I were speaking as a scholar, I woud say that the US is becoming ore "religious", in the sense of being tied into group associations with transcendent symbol systems (not all of which are "religious" or "theistic"), and much less "spiritual". Your examples highlight, to me at least, the decreasing role of personal spirituality and its replacement with group-based "morality". Indeed, one of the common threads I have been following for some time is an increasing attack, usually by denigration, by many groups on individual spirituality, either inside a religious organization or outside of it. To me, this smacks of group-think hubris. W.B. Yeats said it better than me:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.