Saving their Souls in Fallujah?

[Adam L]

As long those people have U.S. Military to do fighting and killing for them there is no need for any Christian militia to start doing that on they own... If one have state apparatus and power behind him, there is no need to have revenge groups like that. Saying that, you are completely right pointing on those groups who are crawling on late night tv and calling for Armagedon.

I was referring to having them go out and commit violence here in the US. This has nothing to do with revenge. There doesn't really even have to be logic behind it at all. My point was that people are becoming more and more easily manipulated and controlled. People are getting more and more desperate to be, and reamain, "happy." "Happiness", is like a drug. It is very complex, but it is something most people will do almost anything to avoid losing. We like to act otherwise, but people will ignore and/or do some pretty horrible things to maintain that state.

Sareajevo71, there are two recruiting methods here in the US for radicals. The first is the classic kind where a group goes out and finds someone down on their luck and gives them stuff and then tries to convert them to their cause. Ironically, they try to convert people using the methods a lot of religions have and do utilize. The second is pretty much the same except people aren't really down on their luck. It is very easy to convert (to a cause) board, disinterested and unsatisfied people. A lot of people just can't deal with the meaninglessness and dull character of everyday life. Look at how many people are on Prozac. It's not that everyone is clinically depressed. The more radical ideologies, whether religious or secular, often give a great sense of meaning and purpose.

Adam L

My opinion is, they are looking for official U.S. policy to support them and stand behind them (something like Jewish state behind zionist policy) with they military and financial support. Something maybe McCain can do since he openly welcomed John Hagee support... Not to say that Obama or Clinton are against supporting zionist or neocon policy without any question. They are ready stated such in they recent speeches.

I think, we all have many reasons to be afraid all of that.

I really disagree with this. More what is happening is that they will vote for anyone who will take a hard line stance at creating what they believe the bible is telling them to do about the ME. I'm starting to wonder if the reason some of the far far out guys want people to support Obama and Clinton, is because they want more conflict. I don't think this is unreasonable thing to say. After Pat Robertson went after Ariel Sharon, saying his stroke was G-d punishing him if I remember correctly, for pulling settlers out of the territories and having talks.

Adam L

[Adam L]

I should make it clear that I am no way saying that I feel that this trend I am mentioning is in anyway specific to Christians. I see this search for "happiness" going on across the board. Some people find Jesus (or other religious equivalents,) while others buy hybrids, find Chomsky or create a belief system out of anything including athiesm, agnostocism, (If Sagan were around he would put Dawkins and Hitchens in their place. He was a brilliant man who opened up the universe to millions around the globe. The universe sure is smaller without him.) environmentalism and perhaps one day football. (I believe this already exists. Its called NFL Sunday Ticket. Unfortunately those of us with cable can't join so it isn't allowed to be a religion under tax law. LOL!)

Adam L

[Sarajevo071]

I was referring to having them go out and commit violence here in the US. This has nothing to do with revenge. There doesn't really even have to be logic behind it at all. My point was that people are becoming more and more easily manipulated and controlled. People are getting more and more desperate to be, and reamain, "happy." "Happiness", is like a drug. It is very complex, but it is something most people will do almost anything to avoid losing. We like to act otherwise, but people will ignore and/or do some pretty horrible things to maintain that state.

I didn't talk about revenge either but since you mention, sure I can put that to into reasoning I see.

Your point about flocks of people is spot on! I saw that for many years and I saw product(s) of those things... And it was not pretty.

[Sarajevo071]

Afghanistan flooded by Christian missionaries

After the US and NATO invasion of Afghanistan, a wave of Christian missionaries poured to the country.

In support of Bush's words about the so-called "war on terrorism" - is in fact a war against Islam, missionaries and the occupation troops operate synchronously and fully coordinate their actions.

The purpose of the troops is destruction, physical violence, provoking poverty, hunger, devastation.

The purpose of missionaries is recruitment of poor and strangulated by massive violence, hunger and devastation Muslims to Christianity.

The Afghan puppet ulema (scholars) warned West-backed puppet president Hamid Karzai over growing Christian proselytizing by foreign aid groups in Afghanistan.
...

http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/cont.../10/9241.shtml

Afghan Clerics Warn Karzai Against Missionaries

Afghanistan’s Islamic council has told President Hamid Karzai to stop foreign aid groups from converting local people to Christianity and has demanded the reintroduction of public executions.

The council, an influential group that lacks binding authority, is made up of the Islamic clergy and ulema, or religious scholars, from various parts of Afghanistan. It made the warning in a statement Friday during a meeting with Mr. Karzai.

The ulema have always played a crucial role in Afghanistan and have been behind several revolts against past governments.

The council said it was concerned about the activities of some “missionary and atheistic” groups, saying that the actions were “against Islamic Shariah, the Constitution, and political stability,” according to a copy of the statement. “If not prevented, God forbid, catastrophe will emerge, which will not only destabilize the country, but the region and the world.”
...

http://in.reuters.com/article/southA...31259720080105

Christian Missionaries Battle For Hearts and Minds in Iraq
...
When he arrived, however, Chang concluded his mission should be more humanitarian than religious. After speaking with Iraqis, he saw how closely people associated colonialism with missionaries, and he learned how angry some people were about comments Christian leaders in the United States had made about Islam and violence. Chang didn't want to appear to insult his new friends by aggressively proselytizing.

...
Carlos Cardoza-Orlandi, associate professor of world Christianity at the Columbia Theological Seminary in Atlanta, said some missionaries compound the tensions in Iraq because they enter with a sense of "victory and triumph."

"They come with here's an opportunity for Christianity to grow and because the U.S. is the occupier and the U.S. is a Christian country. That's pure ignorance," Orlandi said.

"The word 'missionary' carries with it a lot of baggage. It's tainted with notions of Western hegemony and the seeming need to establish political, economic and religious domination," said Jonathan Bonk, editor of the International Bulletin of Missionary Research, which publishes scholarly articles on the topic.

...
Zainab Badran, 36, a pharmacist, said one missionary gave him a Bible.

Although he has no intention of converting from Islam to Christianity, he read it out of curiosity and said it was nice to learn about other religions. He believes Christian aid workers should be more open about their aims.

"I can hear their thoughts and this won't harm me," he said. "I can accept them or refuse."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May15.html

[RTK]

http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/cont.../10/9241.shtml


http://in.reuters.com/article/southA...31259720080105


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May15.html

I don't doubt this; hell I've seen them. But I can say, catagorically, the Christian Ministries are not part of a larger Scheme of Maneuver. We can't even get tank parts to the right place at the right time. The fact that we could get Billy Bob and his Bible to the right place after heavy kinetics is amusing to me.

[marct]

Hi RTK,

I don't doubt this; hell I've seen them. But I can say, catagorically, the Christian Ministries are not part of a larger Scheme of Maneuver. We can't even get tank parts to the right place at the right time. The fact that we could get Billy Bob and his Bible to the right place after heavy kinetics is amusing to me.

"Amusing" isn't exactly the word I would choose ! I don't believe that the Christian missionaries are part of a larger maneuver plan; some appear to have gone in for humanitarian reasons, which I have no problems with. The ones who have gone in, on the other hand, with a "mission to convert" should be, IMO, charged with interfering in the mission. I keep thinking back to the effects of one particular cult leader who stirred up all sorts of trouble in the Southern Sudan with his outrageous actions and promises....

Sarajevo, you are absolutely correct in pointing out the problems these people can, and in a number of cases, are causing. As I said, I have no problems with the ones on a humanitarian mission - their actions speak for themselves. The ones who pull the "convert and you'll eat" type of scenario, OTOH, should be dealt with severely.

You know, RTK's right; it's not a conspiracy, it's a problem with "free riders" - people who take advantage of a situation that they contributed nothing to.

[RTK]

Hi RTK,



"Amusing" isn't exactly the word I would choose ! I don't believe that the Christian missionaries are part of a larger maneuver plan; some appear to have gone in for humanitarian reasons, which I have no problems with. The ones who have gone in, on the other hand, with a "mission to convert" should be, IMO, charged with interfering in the mission. I keep thinking back to the effects of one particular cult leader who stirred up all sorts of trouble in the Southern Sudan with his outrageous actions and promises....

Sarajevo, you are absolutely correct in pointing out the problems these people can, and in a number of cases, are causing. As I said, I have no problems with the ones on a humanitarian mission - their actions speak for themselves. The ones who pull the "convert and you'll eat" type of scenario, OTOH, should be dealt with severely.

You know, RTK's right; it's not a conspiracy, it's a problem with "free riders" - people who take advantage of a situation that they contributed nothing to.

That's why I like you, Marc. You point out the double entendres in my sarcasm.

I agree. Those who are in either country and present the "I'll give you food if you follow Christ" argument need their heads examined.

I remember the kid in Tal Afar Cavguy was talking about. I did not give him that shirt.

[marct]

Hi RTK,

I agree. Those who are in either country and present the "I'll give you food if you follow Christ" argument need their heads examined.

Preferably with a cricket bat at high velocity ! Okay, my prejudice is really showing here, but that type of sleazy action really makes my blood boil. Then again, I've had run-ins with this type of slug too many times and had to deal with the aftermath of their "Christian charity". They are a disgrace to their religion and have done more to damage Christianity than any other group I can think of.

Sorry, this is a real soap-box issue for me. I spent about 4 years counselling kids whose lives had been destroyed by people like this, and dealing with suicidal teens who have been beaten and abused in the name of "religion" and "morality" still makes my blood boil even now .

[/rant}

Marc

[Tom Odom]

Hi RTK,



Preferably with a cricket bat at high velocity ! Okay, my prejudice is really showing here, but that type of sleazy action really makes my blood boil. Then again, I've had run-ins with this type of slug too many times and had to deal with the aftermath of their "Christian charity". They are a disgrace to their religion and have done more to damage Christianity than any other group I can think of.

Sorry, this is a real soap-box issue for me. I spent about 4 years counselling kids whose lives had been destroyed by people like this, and dealing with suicidal teens who have been beaten and abused in the name of "religion" and "morality" still makes my blood boil even now .

[/rant}

Marc

As a veteran observer of 700 Club shenanigans in Lebanon and the Congo, the other victims in this are those who get bamboozled into supporting this stuff as a passport to the promised land. I feel much the same about the Christian Children's Orphonage operation as shown on TV by the well-fed grandpa figure holding up the underpriveleged child. We had a CC orphanage in southern Lebanon; they were warned repeatedly to leave and did not. Their director went home the hard way.

[marct]

Hi Tom,

As a veteran observer of 700 Club shenanigans in Lebanon and the Congo, the other victims in this are those who get bamboozled into supporting this stuff as a passport to the promised land.

Too true! I remember one friend of mine who got caught up in one of the sleazier Christian cults and, to his sorrow, learned the hard way that the cult leader was only out to aggrandize himself. The damage to his psyche was considerable and his anger at both himself and the people who conned him was, at times, scary to behold. 'twas a good thing he liked beer and Irish songs since I could get him to relieve his pent-up emotions by getting drink and singing . Re-building his faith, OTOH, was not so simple.

[Ron Humphrey]

It would seem to me that Faith in and of itself is very much a personal decision and as such faith really should stand on it's own without need for major input from outside interests. That said I think it important that any group be willing to help others in need when it comes to food, shelter, clothes, and economic / educational opportunities for further growth over time.

I will agree with most here that those who take this aid to the next level in requiring something in return or threatening something (or else) very quickly outstay their welcome. I believe for me the most important thing is that all those who choose to spread their faith in such a manner rather than letting their actions, and lives speak for them should be accountable to this standard.

Any one care to go over the number of religiously oriented groups who actively work under this premise right now. Pluralistic societies should at their baseline allow for those within them to know the truth (for themselves) and live to lead by example. The part which really boggles me is which societies feel it is so important to disallow even exposure to other faiths for fear of (??)

If you feel you must defend your faith by forcing it on others then I would say you may be missing some of the necessary elements of belief for yourself.

After all doesn't matter if your of Christian, Jewish, or Islamic faiths I think they all still purport that we were given the ability to choose between right and wrong from day one.

[Sarajevo071]

Sarajevo, you are absolutely correct in pointing out the problems these people can, and in a number of cases, are causing. As I said, I have no problems with the ones on a humanitarian mission - their actions speak for themselves. The ones who pull the "convert and you'll eat" type of scenario, OTOH, should be dealt with severely.

You know, RTK's right; it's not a conspiracy, it's a problem with "free riders" - people who take advantage of a situation that they contributed nothing to.

I never said that I see this like the organized US/Christian conspiracy but I do agree that there are groups who is solely purpose to go there and preach... Nothing else. And they use food like weapon to convert poor and hungry. That's sad. I was on one end of that and I know feeling of anger after it.

I posted those articles so one can see different stories and reactions on actions like that.

[Sarajevo071]

After all doesn't matter if your of Christian, Jewish, or Islamic faiths I think they all still purport that we were given the ability to choose between right and wrong from day one.

[selil]

What does this say about military chaplaincy programs working with foreign populations instead of just with military members?

[RTK]

What does this say about military chaplaincy programs working with foreign populations instead of just with military members?

Not much, so long as the chaplain knows the bounds of his constituancy.

[Adam L]

I didn't talk about revenge either but since you mention, sure I can put that to into reasoning I see.

Your point about flocks of people is spot on! I saw that for many years and I saw product(s) of those things... And it was not pretty.

At one point you referred to "revenge groups" not being necessary. Sorry if I read too much into that.

Adam L

[Tom Odom]

Not much, so long as the chaplain knows the bounds of his constituancy.

Well at the risk of bucking the current of the day, I remain very sceptical of this as an intiative for reasons on both sides of the interactive equation.

I understand that it has worked well at least according to those who support it; I have however talked to chaplains who are not as comfortable with it.

But hey, that's me

Tom

[Ken White]

and me..........

[selil]

Aye me too!

[marct]

but I have no problems as long as they are doing humanitarian work or trying to reduce conflict. Then again, we've had this discussion before .