Quote Originally Posted by Sarajevo071 View Post
Always something or someone else but never you and your actions (reasons why Iraqi people are hating you and fighting you is “wrong” Islamic ideology, money and foreign elements” but never like reactions of bombings, killings and rapes by US soldiers!?)
I don't think anyone has argued that such things aren't factors. This is the root of the extreme emphasis on perception and "information operations" currently being made throughout the military. Atrocities on a battlefield - whether premeditated like the 101st Airborne's rape case a few years ago in Mahmoudiya, purposeful in the heat of battle, or accidental - are as old as war itself, and hardly limited to insurgency. Even an Ambrose-style popular history of World War II will have numerous instances of American soldiers accidentally killing civilians with artillery fire or shooting Germans attempting to surrender in the heat of a firefight.

Americans are perhaps more messianic than most peoples and can therefore be more defensive about these happenings, but I don't think anyone here denies that they occur, or that they can have an impact on an insurgency. Certainly the Mahmoudiya rapes were at least the stated rationale for the kidnappings of US soldiers in Yousifiya, and atrocities can spur nationalist resistance sentiments among a population. Our cordon-and-search techniques and detainee operations, I would argue, definitely contributed to the Sunni insurgency in the immediate aftermath of the invasion. Anger and resentment from indiscriminate use of American firepower in Vietnam helped the Viet Cong.

I think we had more currency, so to speak, to spend in France or Italy in World War II in terms of atrocities before the population soured on us. We were unquestionably liberating their nations from the Nazis, and the local populations understood the tremendous effort it took to defeat them, and as such wasn't about to turn on us because of occasional civilian casualties inflicted by American firepower. To an extent I believe this held in Korea as well. In the Vietnamese "People's War" every wrongful death or property destruction eventually became a rod for our own back - this continues in Iraq. Hence, again, the extreme emphasis on avoiding such incidents; look at the rapid and extremely apologetic response for the Qur'an shooting incident and the passing out of Christian tokens in Fallujah.

Finally, the proliferation, decentralization, and dramatically increased worldwide access to media (both its production and consumption) has made these incidents more visible and accessible to the public. Shooting a German prisoner in World War II as he left a house with his hands above his head is as regrettable as the Marine killing a wounded enemy fighter with a single shot to the head in Fallujah in 2004 - yet the former incident happened countless times in WWII with nary a mention in the media (American or German) and the Fallujah incident was shown endlessly on CNN and even more endlessly on al Jazeera, al Arabiyya, and the like. Every time such an event occurs, it is made known to more people, and its impact is far greater. Vietnam was the television war - Iraq has gone from the 24-television news war to the blog/YouTube/cellphone camera war. None of this is to say that committing such acts is in any way justified, but I believe that to be the legitimate context, and as such why it seems so unique and profound to someone like Hedges.

(I think article is AMAZINGLY open and honest, and talks about real picture you all ignoring for either being to pride or to patriotic to admit)
I admit - the article doesn't exactly give me a nice warm feeling. It makes me defensive, and I believe much of it to be somewhat ignorant, but I can agree with your stated concept that cases of wrongdoing or atrocity are [a part] of the reason behind insurgencies in Vietnam, Iraq, or elsewhere. But I emphasize part, because poor American treatment of detainees did not spark JAM or other Shi'ite militias; nor are those smugglers and organized crime elements who resist the Iraqi government and the Americans doing so because they are redressing American atrocities.



For what it's worth, Sarajevo, I urge you to stay. You are a viewpoint we don't have, and while it may be hard for us to stomach some of what you tell us (and undoubtedly harder for you to stomach what we write), I think it's probably good for all concerned.

Just as Abu Buckwheat wrote about the moral hard deck on the Lone Survivor thread, I don't think it's bad to be reminded that we cannot overlook these occurrences because we know we tried harder than anybody else would to avoid them, or only try to prevent them because it complicates a COIN effort. They need to be prevented if possible and prosecuted if necessary because they are wrong. . .

Regards,

Matt