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    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam L View Post
    ....I do not view the media in general at all favorably these days. It's next to impossible to find anything resembling the news on television. ....
    That and many of the other criticisms in this thread of the main stream media are created by an expectation gap of reality and fantasy. The fantasy is that for Americans in general the news organizations exist to provide factual representation of a dialog in politics and events. The reality is that there is no such rule or expectation. The first amendment protects political speech along with expression (just ask Larry Flynt) for the media, person walking down the street, or even crazy people outside military funerals.

    The media in general (CNN to CBS) does not exist to provide balanced reporting. The expectation since Ben Franklin and the Federalist Papers is that there will be spin, cajoling, coordinated yellow screaming, nasty pitiful arrogant, caustic spin in the reporting to bend the will of the people. You don't have to like it but as Hurst said you go report it and I'll start the war (something like that).

    Let's talk about the evening news. The early growth of the television market created this fantasy of balanced journalism. Whether we are talking about Walter Cronkite "The most trusted man in America", or Edward R. Murro "Goodnight and Goodluck" chasing the evil pixies of Macarthyism the reality is they all had biases. It is just people agreed with their biases. Who in the world would expect 18 minutes of content at an average of 45 seconds per story, 3 minutes for the big head line of the day, to have any relevance what so ever? Most of the Internet content from large media outlets is simply regurgitated hash done the same way because that is what they do. Only opinion pages are not given short shrift, and all of the large media outlets have shut down post-broadcast editorials. No more Edward Murro challenging our intellect or politics.

    The editorial boards of most news organizations are egotistical, sycophantic, arrogant, back stabbing, advertiser driven, petty groups who see the world through a myopic view of journalistic furor. Rather than consider them the spinners of lies and untruths it is the volume of sifting and the shallow level they think that is the problem. Most of the news organizations have cut their staffs to near zero, the regurgitate AP and Reuters like great truth, and people drink even more from the desiccated teat of information.

    The blogosphere isn't much better. I look at the top rated blogs by technocrati and other rating systems and what are they doing? They are rehashing AP and Reuters creating commentary on the stories in a vacuum of self censure and egoism. Most blogs take the mindless chatter and spew it forth just the same as the news organizations only with opinion embedded. The primary value of such being their nature to aggregate stories. There are very few places like Small Wars Journal that creates content that has had peer review layered to mitigate the mind numbing baseless arrogance found in the main stream media.

    All of that said the media is working with one caveat exactly as planned. The signal to noise ratio is unbalanced by the existence of media conglomerates and centralized ownership. This creates an echo chamber of ideas as owners pick and choose staff based on their own biases. The public has a tendency to gravitate towards the agent they agree with rather than the one that provides better reporting. Thus we see diatribes against The Clinton Network News (CNN), and the I won't say it (FOX) news organizations. Yet that is still how it should be. Debate with out rancor is a fine thing to wish for, but I wish to be good looking and young again too.

    Hopefully in the cauldron of the media we can still find the nugget of information, but it isn't that people are stupid, or that the media is inappropriately biased, or that people have no critical thinking skills, or that people are dumber than they used to be, or perhaps that there is a left/right wing conspiracy, but it is true that things in the media space should be uncomfortable.

    There is a wide gap between the fantasy of fair-balanced media and the reality of the humans and systems. It isn't that it is broken as quite the contrary it is working just the way it should. The speech and expression that makes us the most uncomfortable is likely the most protected speech just for that reason. The real fear is not that they do their job poorly in the main stream media but that they stop doing their job all together. That job is not to get the facts straight but to get the point across. Those are two different goals. As indoctrinated as we Americans are all to this fantasy concept of fair-balanced media it is difficult to accept, but it says no where in the first Amendment does it say fair/balanced/truth. It is freedom of speech/press that is protected not their veracity.

    You really don't want to watch a factual news broadcast where they tell you the water in the flood zone has risen 3 feet due to three bazillion gallons per minute flow rate, and increasing. Instead the story is broadcast as the toll on the living and dying and the reach into the lives of the effected. The compelling story is the suffering which is where we get "If it bleeds it leads" and other disaffected stories.

    One final thing. Censorship is always the last bastion of those who have lost an argument and the first step toward evil. Agree, disagree, but as long as the debate is in the open sooner or later the fallacious nature found in either argument will be shown. There is no practical limit on freedom of speech beyond slander, libel, and (argh) copyright. There is likely way to much restriction currently on freedom of speech from self censorship found in the political correctness movement. Today society is much more civil and as a result filled with much more drivel than in the 1960s. As a point where are the true scallawags of the media today? I can't find a Hunter S. Thompson, or Kerouac (chosen as opposites).

    It is the nature of the soldier to try and control that which could harm. Huntington and other talk about the civil military relations and a big part of that is media. MountainRunner has an entire BLOG about the media and the government. The reality is that the soldier should have a perspective that is slightly onerous toward the media as at no point in American history has the media given the military a free ride. Love the soldiers, hate the war, is no dichotomy to the journalist. It is highly incongruous to the soldier to say you love them, and then vilify their work. However, it is no less damning to the military member to vilify an entire amendment to the Constitution, by crying censor the bastards, then it is publicly support a particular presidential candidate. In a flip of the journalist credo the soldier can say hate the journalists, love the right to freedom of expression. Which should drive most journalists just as crazy as they do the military.
    Sam Liles
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    Council Member Surferbeetle's Avatar
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    Default Wow!

    Sam,

    Nice post.

    Regards

    Steve
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    Council Member Culpeper's Avatar
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    I posted that somewhere myself once. Not sure where. But it is a nice spoof on today's press.

    The Truth:

    "This is a war and it must be expected that people will be killed..We would take twice the anticipated loss to be rid of the Germans"

    -- French Major General Pierre Koenig, de Gaul's head of French forces in Britain, in response to Churchill's nail biting over French civilian casualties before Operation Overlord.
    "But suppose everybody on our side felt that way?"
    "Then I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way. Wouldn't I?"


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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default No one asked but

    everyone is entitled to my opinion...

    Sam is correct and as Charlie said, it's a good post.

    Schmedlap is also correct and both his posts were good.

    Between the two I seem to fall. I don't watch TV and do not miss it; I check maybe 30-40 sources worldwide a week on the internet and manage to stay reasonably abreast of what's happening. I remain sadly disappointed in the quality of today's journalism as I compare it to the quality of forty or fifty years ago. There's no comparison. The issue is greater than the bottom line of the entertainment industry that owns TV 'News' because the total lack of seriousness and the celebrity focus is also present in most broadsheet newspapers -- it, is I think, an issue of a (wrongful) belief in the majesty of the media and their (equally wrong IMO) assessment that they are giving the public what the public wants. They may be but no one from my ten year old niece up to random waiters and cashiers to some of my older than I am friends seems to agree with them on that score; thus I'm unsure where they get that...

    I think (though I might have missed it in the thread) what is not said is the terrible ignorance of most of the reporting media types. Not all, there are some great ones out there but the majority of reporters IMO exhibit an astounding lack of knowledge about most subjects. The natural mildly left bias of most journalists, particularly the junior editor and producers is not a problem, that can be filtered. Ignorance cannot be filtered and a lack of clarity in reporting or editing can create wrongful assumptions on the part of readers or viewers.

    Seems to me that just as the Education community is wrong to insist on Ed. degrees for K-12 (sorry, Sam ) the jorno commune is wrong to insist on journalism degrees for their practitioners. Makes no difference how great your presentation is if you aren't imparting knowledge.

    Then, if one has none, it's difficult to impart...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Seems to me that just as the Education community is wrong to insist on Ed. degrees for K-12 (sorry, Sam ) the jorno commune is wrong to insist on journalism degrees for their practitioners. Makes no difference how great your presentation is if you aren't imparting knowledge.

    Then, if one has none, it's difficult to impart...
    Exactly how I feel. Well said.

    Adam L

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    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Seems to me that just as the Education community is wrong to insist on Ed. degrees for K-12 (sorry, Sam ) the jorno commune is wrong to insist on journalism degrees for their practitioners. Makes no difference how great your presentation is if you aren't imparting knowledge.
    Then, if one has none, it's difficult to impart...
    No apology needed Ken, in that a chemistry teacher in high school should have a degree in chemistry and a certificate in education. Rather than the degree in education and the (often lack of) certificate in chemistry. K-elementary I think the education degree is fine but when you go to classes based on content instead of education (intermediate, middle, junior, high school) the teacher should be at least a fair expert in their field.

    When looking at reporter credentials for reporting the news one of the watch dog groups found that the weather channel had the most relevant training/education/reporting ratios with most of their reporters having meteorology degrees.

    There is more to the story though than rampant anti-intellectualism on one hand and the pseudo credentialism on the other hand. The media and the issues with society are no less complex than civil military issues. The censorship rampant in the reporting from Iraq and Afghanistan with the associated cacophony of complaints is a warning of peril. Whereas democracy and capitalism have nothing to do with each other a free press is a corner stone to democracy.
    Sam Liles
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    The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
    All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.

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    Default weather channel

    That's why they are always able to cover all the hot spots around the world.

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    When looking at reporter credentials for reporting the news one of the watch dog groups found that the weather channel had the most relevant training/education/reporting ratios with most of their reporters having meteorology degrees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    The censorship rampant in the reporting from Iraq and Afghanistan with the associated cacophony of complaints is a warning of peril. Whereas democracy and capitalism have nothing to do with each other a free press is a corner stone to democracy.
    Who is being censored and by whom?

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    In Rupert Murdoch's world of media, most of it is entertainment designed to attract viewers and advertising revenue. That's what drives it.

    Unfortunately very few people in America value truth and learning about difficult and hard to comprehend topics. True, there still are old fashioned investigative reporters, that produce good work but there seems to be little interest from the general public in their work. What they want, and get, in the way of "news" is pre-processed sixty second sound bites. That's why Fox News has an audience.

    There is anecdotal evidence for the dumbing down of Americans as well, but whether this is a result of rotten media or rotten education is unclear. The result is the same, Britney commands more attention then the design of a global greenhouse gas emissions trading scheme.

    As for the French satire, as satire goes, it's funny. The reality though is that the situation of the French and Hitler's evil were written large enough to make it perfectly obvious to anyone alive at the time that there was going to be collateral damage.

    When someone does write the history of the American media during the Iraq war, it's going to be a tale of complicity in carefully spreading the Bush Administrations orchestrated litany of lies regarding weapons of mass destruction that were used to justify the war in the first place. Mere gullibility doesn't explain it.

    I have about forty web pages that I browse for news, and I normally check the history of the reporters themselves if a particularly sensational report appears. The last one I checked was Daniel Foggo, whose piece today about Iran purchasing African monkeys is now being morphed into an Iranian bio - weapons campaign. For the record, Foggo appears to be a trustworthy source and I think one can safely assume that Iran purchases monkeys. All else is speculation.

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    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    Who is being censored and by whom?
    There are a variety of ways to create censorship and thereby create an information conduit more conducive to the vagaries of conflict. The embed and pool concepts "allowed" by the military are a form of censorship. Tight control on the activities of reporters and thereby creating bias from refusing to allow flag dropped coffins shown, or embargoing stories because they are embarassing, up to and including charging journalists as spies all causes issues. But, don't take my word for it.

    Media Under Fire: Reporting Conflict in Iraq Australian Government Document

    This is likely the best document covering the ground of censorship, media involvement, and honest appraisal of the US Government tactics to make the war more palatable to the American public.

    controlling the media in iraq Contexts Magazine (Sociology)

    This article looks at the social aspects of the journalists and war in an in depth view that though I feel biased is fairly tactful in the treatment.

    The issue is large, it is difficult, it is not a pretty, nor is it easy to understand. A simple epithet or slogan will not cover it, nor make it easier to understand. I find that to many people are more interested in finding evidence to support their position right or wrong than trying to discover the depth of the issue and the breadth of a solution. Media relations, and "handling" by commanders in a war zone, cuts a broad swath across the trust and relationship of the people and the military.

    There is a broad anti-media sentiment in the members of the military. From the Pentagon Papers, to the Vietnam War, back to the befuddled Air Force and their Boeing contract the relationship between military service and media reporting has not been nice. It would be easy for me personally to say, "Screw the media, hang em all, let god sort em' out". You deserve better than a weak kneed echo chamber of popular shenanigans.

    The military-civil discourse and media abandonment enjoyed in the early stages of the Iraq war has begun to erode in the waning of support for the commander in chief, the congress, and the established organizations and departments. If you look at the dates of the articles posted the bias from the Australian article to the sociology article is not in the authors perceptions but the dilation of time. The one is from five years ago and the other this spring.

    Censorship is recognized not only the blocking of a story but in the acquisition of information to fully inform a story. Sunshine laws, FOIA and so many other access methods/laws are there to insure that the public is informed rather than blockaded. The military has used the blockade/embargo method in Iraq to great utility. It will breakdown if popular pressure from media outlets leads to "adventure" journalism and the reporting styles, as inelegant as they were, found in Vietnam.
    Sam Liles
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    The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
    All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.

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    Council Member Surferbeetle's Avatar
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    Default Running with the education angle....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    everyone is entitled to my opinion...

    Sam is correct and as Charlie said, it's a good post.

    Schmedlap is also correct and both his posts were good.

    Between the two I seem to fall. I don't watch TV and do not miss it; I check maybe 30-40 sources worldwide a week on the internet and manage to stay reasonably abreast of what's happening. I remain sadly disappointed in the quality of today's journalism as I compare it to the quality of forty or fifty years ago. There's no comparison.
    From the July 6th 2008 FT

    For decades the educational quality of the US labour force surged. In 1940, less than 5 per cent of the population aged 25-64 had at least a four-year college education. By 2000, the proportion had increased to nearly 30 per cent. Successive generations of workers improved on the educational attainments of their predecessors. Retiring workers were replaced by better-educated youngsters. This remorseless accumulation of human capital helped fuel the country’s postwar growth. According to at least one authoritative study, it was the principal driver.

    This trend came to a halt with workers now aged 55-59. Younger cohorts are no better educated than these soon-to-retire boomers. Broadly speaking, educational quality has topped out – and on at least one measure, it is actually deteriorating. In 2006, Americans aged 55-59 collectively possessed more masters degrees, professional degrees and doctorates than Americans aged 30-34. This impending loss of educational capital is entirely outside the country’s experience.
    Yet one key indicator suggests real cause for concern: the declining high school graduation rate, which affects the supply of those seeking to go to college. This too has been a bitterly contested statistic in the US. The country’s highly decentralised education system causes a proliferation of conflicting data sources and definitions. But a recent careful study by Nobel laureate James Heckman and Paul LaFontaine found that the high school graduation rate “has been falling for 40 years” and that this “explains part of the recent slowdown in college attendance”.
    Ken,

    Best,

    Steve
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  12. #12
    Council Member Featherock's Avatar
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    Default Any actual journalists here?

    The post that started this thread is conservative propaganda and not worth the attention of SWJ readers. The discussion it generated is more interesting.

    That said, are there any actual journalists commenting here?

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Read the thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by Featherock View Post
    The post that started this thread is conservative propaganda and not worth the attention of SWJ readers.
    I would've said poor satire as opposed to propaganda but whatever.
    That said, are there any actual journalists commenting here?
    Oblong said he was, >20 years worth...

    Now you're here so that's two (plus lurkers like hedgpethd), I guess...

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    Council Member Featherock's Avatar
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    I thought that the satire itself was quite good! It's the propagandistic bent to it that brings it down. But enough of that...

    I don't think we in the U.S. get enough mainstream media stories that are critical of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Thank God for the web

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default If you mean

    Quote Originally Posted by Featherock View Post
    I don't think we in the U.S. get enough mainstream media stories that are critical of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
    Definition 1, below, I think we get more than enough *. If you mean Definition 2, then I agree with you:

    1. Inclined to judge severely and find fault.

    2. Characterized by careful, exact evaluation and judgment:


    * With the caveat that I understand that if it doesn't bleed, it doesn't lead and that the second definition is precluded by several factors including local stringers with obvious and totally understandable impartiality problems and a general lack of knowledge, acceptance or understanding of all many western reporters see -- and also that there's a strong proclivity to insure prophecy becomes reality on the part of stateside based editors and producers.

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    Council Member Culpeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Featherock View Post
    The post that started this thread is conservative propaganda and not worth the attention of SWJ readers. The discussion it generated is more interesting.
    Conservative propaganda is a little harsh. Conservative satire is more like it. Its intellectual value has some merit no different than political cartoons of every flavor. Excluding myself, most of the folks posting on this thread are taking a serious look at the media that the satire sparked. So, I disagree that the post, which started this thread is not worth reading by SWC readers. Without the original post there would be no discussion here. If you found the original post insulting in some way than please elaborate further. To include something written in American society as propaganda is not taking a fair look at freedom of expression. The word, "propaganda" used to describe someone's freedom of expression is a hot button that should be used with caution. Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of every journalist's philosophy on Freedom for the Press. In fact, I would go far as to state that describing the satire as "conservative", "liberal", "right", or "left", is a moot point.
    "But suppose everybody on our side felt that way?"
    "Then I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way. Wouldn't I?"


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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    That and many of the other criticisms in this thread of the main stream media are created by an expectation gap of reality and fantasy. The fantasy is that for Americans in general the news organizations exist to provide factual representation of a dialog in politics and events. The reality is that there is no such rule or expectation.
    I think that is correct for cable channels but not for the networks or even many newspapers. I think most people assume that the network news and local newspaper are filling the role of journalist, rather than of pundit, partisan, or entertainer. The networks and newspapers seem to embrace that image of the professional journalist, even though many of them are not.

    I don't fault CNN, FOX, or MSNBC for the drivel that they peddle. It is tabloid entertainment for people who have an interest in politics and I think that most viewers understand the bias of each channel. They need to sell advertising space. Political ideology is an effective way for them to segment their market. And I may be wrong, but I don't think that the cable news channels try to convince anyone that they are legitimate journalists. Even FOX's "fair and balanced" motto is aimed directly at conservatives who have long been irked by what they perceive as a left-leaning bias in the media. No leftist believes that FOX is fair and balanced. Most regular conservative viewers do, and that is why they watch it. MSNBC has staked out its ground on the left with Olbermann, Matthews, et al. CNN, partially in response to a left-leaning competitor and the growth of FOX seems to be trying to obtain a piece of the middle and center-right with the populist hysteria of Dobbs and Cafferty and the conservative Beck. The cable channels pride themselves on interviews with big-name pundits, eye-pleasing sets and effects, infobabes who are easy on the eyes, and continuous coverage of a narrow range of issues that are of interest to their left/right target audience.

    The cable channels like to emphasize "24/7" and "the biggest guests" and "immediate coverage." The networks, on the other hand, like to highlight the trust and professionalism of their anchor or their reporter in the field. "News you can trust" and "experience" is more the theme of the networks. And that is my beef with the networks.

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    Council Member Culpeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    The networks, on the other hand, like to highlight the trust and professionalism of their anchor or their reporter in the field. "News you can trust" and "experience" is more the theme of the networks. And that is my beef with the networks.

    At the risk of quoting out of context. Walter Cronkite, in the days of three channels, incorrectly and devastatingly, reported that the war in Southeast Asia was lost after the Tet Offensive. He spoke too soon with devastating results based on no evidence. The VC and NVA lost the offensive. They won the hearts and minds of the American public thanks to Cronkite himself who should be held accountable for sensationalism that cost the lives of a lot of Americans.

    It is almost impossible for America to win a war with today's press without some sort of censorship. I think the government has done a good job keeping the press in the so-called "Green Zone". If these morons ventured out into the streets there is no telling where we would be right now. Same goes for Afghanistan. What has changed a lot since Vietnam, and occurred mostly during the wars in eastern Europe during the 90s, was the real risk of reporters getting killed at a higher rate than Vietnam. The other side really don't care about the war correspondents' well being any longer. Sure, a lot of reporters were killed in Vietnam. Keeping them out of the way and behind a desk, or rather, under a desk, is better than the old days when there were reporters with some courage and lack of backbone to tell the truth opting instead to report based sensationalism. Like the invisible hand of supply and demand in economics leaving the press to fend for themselves in a war zone will take care of a lot of sensationalism that could have a negative effect on the outcome of a conflict. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
    Last edited by Culpeper; 07-06-2008 at 05:51 PM.
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