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  1. #1
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    Default Mass production

    In response to Bill Moore:

    Let me first note that I was primarily commenting on how while the article in question discussed its implications on CA and PSYOP, the discussion was heavily focused on SF. This is reflective of the attitude I perceive throughout the community, although I've already been happily made aware that some of my perceptions are wrong.

    I essentially agree with everything in Bill Moore's post. Mass production results in production errors. It is something I'm going to have to live with, and all I really have control over is my team, and how we perform on deployment.

    I'm glad to know that senior CA and PSYOP officers are making the same sort of comments I did, because that means I've accurately assessed the situation, to some degree at least. Absolutely I agree that the emotion should be taken out of the discussion. I'm not sure if I seemed particularly emotionally invested in the matter (nor am I sure that it was implied that I was), but if I did, let me assure you that I simply don't have the emotional resources to be diverted in that direction.

    As far as tactfully educating my command on how to employ us, I'm all over that one - My team chief wants me to have our team's CAPEs brief ready to go a month before we deploy.

    Anyway, I think the questions you raised are absolutely critical to the future of this country's military hegemony.

    I think we need to rephrase the sentiment though - 'we need more properly trained and effective PSYOP and CA' is a more comprehensive way of expressing the conventional wisdom. Can I get a hallelujah?

    As far as answering this bit:


    <Third, "if" CA and PSYOP Soldiers are poorly trained, who reached that conclusion and why? What is it that we want CMO and PYSOP to accomplish downrange? Can the Soldiers do it? If not, why not? Inadequate training in some skill areas? Unrealistic expectations? Bottom line is that we to identify the “specific” problems (if there are any), then figure out how to fix them. >

    I could not agree more, and if I thought I could do it, and anyone would care, I'd scrap my current thesis (an examination of how the rejection of Aristotelian reason in response to al Mamum's mihna, and the decline of Mutazalite influence in Sunni Islam in the 9th c. CE has directly contributed to the intransigence of the Arab-Israeli conflict) and all the research I've done, in order to try to answer those exact questions so that people smarter than me could develop solutions.

    I've got my ideas concerning those answers, but as a social scientist I don't like to draw conclusions based solely on my own observations, no matter how common sense they may appear to be.

    I could postulate all night over what ifs, and engage in thought experiments and grandiose proposals for selection boards, Personality Inventories, 6 month long AITs, continuing MOS specific training, ad nauseum (nauseating for you, at least!) but I do think there are some no brainers worth addressing.

    PSYOP is a confusing job. It's ill defined, and rather than try to better define it, we need to give soldiers a better chance to wrap their heads around it. Some of the concepts are collegiate level issues that need that sort of attention. Creating cognitive dissonance is one example. Collegiate Cognitive Psych classes spend a week on just *understanding* what cognitive dissonance it, much less creating it.

    The 18x program hasn't seen any lack of interest, has it? That's because SF is perceived to be bad-ass. People are attracted to bad-asserey. Create the perception (and work to make it an undeniable reality) that CA and PSYOP are elite units, and I suspect interest will skyrocket. Get a MIST involved on the next season of 24, sex up a TPT and CAT-A by including them in the GI Joe movie sequel, and watch what happens. :-)

    Reservists changing their MOS get the shaft. They may need more time than AIT students to 'get it' because we're asking them to make a fundamental change in the way they approach missions. How can we expect an MP or an Infantryman to just reject the mindset that they've developed over years of training and practice, with a 3 week test-memorizing course?

    Cadre should be drawn from the best and brightest, and held to an almost impossibly high ethical standard.

    Aside from that, I would love to see more integration between the Reserve and AD. We're talking about a TINY community on the tactical side, less than 1500 soldiers, from what I understand? Send AD soldiers with great evals back from deployment to spend a weekend every month with Reserve units gearing up to deploy. Send Reserve soldiers to 4th POG to boost capacity for short missions. The animosity between the reserve side and the AD side goes beyond friendly rivalry (from what I've seen) and we're too small of a community to tolerate that sort of thing.

    Like I said, I could go on forever just brainstorming solutions, but I've got zero insight into the feasibility of those suggestions, nor do I understand the political dynamics or tensions operating WAY above my paygrade, although I'm fairly confident in my comprehension ability.

    Good night! I've got boring homework to get back to :-)

  2. #2
    Council Member 82redleg's Avatar
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    Default To Play Devil's Advocate

    Should CA and PYSOP remain SOF? Except for the active BDEs, I don't believe they are part of USASOC any more, but USACAPOC.

    We've determined that every BCT needs them in theater (something we haven't done with ODAs, Rangers, 160th, etc)?

    CA & PSYOP have a dichotomy, in that thier AC units exist to support SOF, while their RC units exist to support the rest of the Army. Despite all the expansion, my BCT will only ever see 1 PSYOP NCO, 1 CA NCO and CA officer from the AC- a COA which automatically creates tension between us and our CA/PSYOP support. I'm not saying its right, I'm saying thats the way it is.

    Heck, since we've made everything else organic to the BCTs, maybe a combined CA/PSYOP company in the BSTB?

  3. #3
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    Default

    CA and PSYOP have been part of USACAPOC for years now, which was once known as the US Army Reserve Special Operations Command. In 1990 USACAPOC was created and aligned under USASOC according to functional lines (instead of component).

    A couple years ago USACAPOC moved from USASOC to USAR, but "USASOC was to retain proponency for Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations -- including doctrine, combat development and institutional training."

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...y/ca-psyop.htm

    I don't think you're playing Devil's Advocate, actually, I think there's a significant degree of pressure to continue to divest CA and PSYOP from its SOF roots. From my limited understanding, the AD components are supposed to be supporting only the SOF units, but the reality is the manpower simply isnt there yet.

    I just personally don't see how this divorce with weekend custody can continue. If there's tension between your BCT and its CA and PSYOP element, and there's tension between the AD and RC of CA and PSYOP, and tension between CA and PSYOP itself, not to mention tensions between the reservists who went through reclass school and those who went through AIT at the unit level, there's just WAY too much tension and not enough love.

    If you're with the 82nd, I suspect 'tension' is a kind way of putting it. I think there's a mutual disdain that hampers mission readiness. I hope I'm wrong, that's just the impression I've gotten in my limited experience.

    Should CA and PSYOP be completely separated from SOF? I think if you polled CA and PSYOP, you'd get a resounding 'hells to the no'. If you asked big Army and USAR, the answers might range from 'absolutely' to 'who cares' to 'why do we even need those guys'?

    As far as combining CA and PSYOP into a single company, I'm not sure thats a good move - there's a distinction between the two objectives that needs to be maintained. CA has a very specific function, whereas PSYOP has to be as flexible as a Ukrainian gymnast in order to maximize its potential contribution.

    The Army needs to hire a bunch of relationship counselors so we can all explore and resolve our feelings. Group hug anyone?

    This board is rapidly becoming my new procrastination excuse! Bad mojo.

  4. #4
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    Default moot discussion

    So unreliable inside sources tell me the decision has already been made for USASOC to re-absorb CAPOC, and that it could happen as early as within the next 6 months. I never realized how much the Army was like high school, full of cliques and rumors. oh. my. god! can you believe, like, totally.

  5. #5
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Worse, it's worse...

    Believe me. Can be even more fun than High School, though...

  6. #6
    Council Member reed11b's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoun View Post
    So unreliable inside sources tell me the decision has already been made for USASOC to re-absorb CAPOC, and that it could happen as early as within the next 6 months. I never realized how much the Army was like high school, full of cliques and rumors. oh. my. god! can you believe, like, totally.
    Umm, for us dumb knuckle dragger eleven bang bangs could you explain what that means? pictures help too.
    Reed
    P.S. I think that even spreading out the CA teams to co-exist w/ the SF groups would help to expand there utility and knowledge base. Same for Psyops, though I know even less about them.
    Quote Originally Posted by sapperfitz82 View Post
    This truly is the bike helmet generation.

  7. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by reed11b View Post
    Umm, for us dumb knuckle dragger eleven bang bangs could you explain what that means? pictures help too.
    Reed
    P.S. I think that even spreading out the CA teams to co-exist w/ the SF groups would help to expand there utility and knowledge base. Same for Psyops, though I know even less about them.
    Reed, you think I know what that means? I really have no idea, when it comes down to the nitty gritty. I HOPE it means world peace will break out and the sun will rise over a Pax Americana that lasts until the martians arrive, but I think I might be setting my expectations a little high on that one.

    maybe.

  8. #8
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    Wink Good news

    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoun View Post
    I HOPE it means world peace will break out and the sun will rise over a Pax Americana that lasts until the martians arrive...
    Based on the news reports that I've been seeing over the past week, that should be occurring today at around noon. At least the world peace thing.

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