Weight of Combat Gear Is Taking Toll

[Ken White]

Though, since I'm old and out of date, I'm reminded of the ancient (Tutankhamun's army, I think...) Staff Ossfiers Dictum; "Answer the question, answer the question that should have been asked and answer the questions your answer will generate." This is probably my fault for being too dumb to ask the right question and detail. However, more curiosity:

1. In the unlikely event you're asked to produce said card by someone who like an airline ticket clerk or a busybody MP who wants to see a picture ID...

Guess what you did was okay but I'm having trouble following the logic of not carrying a 1/87 ounce item...

2. I understand that. Also understand having to leave a dismount or two with the Brad. However, since I wasn't in Iraq I can't speak to the target sets you might meet but assuming, hopefully, that you almost never if ever fired on anything but semi-auto, nine mags x three people is 810 rounds. Allowing for 10% hits (hopefully better), that's 81 targets??? Not trying to give you a hard time nor am I disputing the need or logic; can't know without being there but I don't think I ever fired more than 100 rounds in any fight -- including one rolling 20+ hour job and one rather intense deal that was almost 8 solid hours. In the several with two to four folks, if you didn't knock 'em down or break contact * in less than a few minutes, you were toast. Just trying to gain some understanding.

3. Understand. Hopefully, no one ever got separated or was the only guy left and had to take care of himself. Or no dodo broke the rod or lost the bore brush. Or the guy with the kit didn't get evaced and we forgot to get the kit...

As we both said, every situation is different and what works well one place at one point in time might not be a good solution for the next place...

I'm not being obtuse or criticizing, just trying to learn and reconcile with significant differences from my experience.

* I don't guess a WP grenade taped to a Claymore with three seconds of fuze and an M60 Fuse Igniter could be used for breaking contact there, huh?

[Schmedlap]

1. In the unlikely event you're asked to produce said card by someone who like an airline ticket clerk or a busybody MP who wants to see a picture ID...

That was the beauty of operating from a patrol base. I did travel to a FOB after being in theater for a few months and encountered what you speak of, but it didn't apply to patrols within our AOR. On that occasion, the gate guard wanted to see our ID cards. We didn't have them. I explained to the old lady (yes, a little old lady wearing a helmet and a plate carrier that I doubt could have stopped a BB), that I was not going to drive 45 minutes back to my patrol base to round up ID cards. If 4 American-looking HMMWVs, full of American-looking Soldiers in American-looking uniforms, carrying lots of American-looking equipment, operating on frequency hop with the correct COMSEC fill, sporting Warlocks, etc, etc, was not good enough, then we were going to have some problems - especially since we would not have enough fuel unless we entered the base and got more. She reluctantly "let" us in after taking down my name, rank, etc. It was a foreshadowing of the madness that we would witness in the next 45 minutes.

Guess what you did was okay but I'm having trouble following the logic of not carrying a 1/87 ounce item...

It had no purpose on patrol and it was easy to lose. At the same time, it was a big deal for a Soldier to lose it. I've also seen ID cards featured prominently in terrorist/insurgent propaganda. I just couldn't think of one good reason to bring them on patrol, nor did anyone ever suggest one.

... hopefully, that you almost never if ever fired on anything but semi-auto, nine mags x three people is 810 rounds. Allowing for 10% hits (hopefully better), that's 81 targets???

There were a bunch of reasons - I could probably type until my hands hurt. None of the reasons below, by themselves, justify that much ammo. Taken together, I think they make a good case. I'm familiar with your take on fire discipline from other threads. Without wiping my butt with every bit OPSEC guidance I've ever received, I don't think I can sufficiently convey the nature of how we operated to answer this adequately. But, if I could, I think that you would agree with our rationale (I'm about 90% sure). Keep in mind, for simplicity, I'm only discussing how many Infantry company operated in OIF III.
- Using your numbers above, I would not say 81 targets per fire team. I would say 27 targets per Soldier. Not to nitpick, but the team isn't going to all rush over and focus on one sector - they still need to maintain 360 security. So the relevant concern is targets per Soldiers, not targets per team. Diversionary attacks were common. Obviously, you interlock sectors of fire when possible, but you're just not going to have much overlap with a fire team that's pulling 360. Our rationale was that if you're taking fire from three buildings in your sector of fire that have 5 or 6 windows in each building facing you, then you've got 15 to 18 targets (yes, far less than 27). All of our dismount patrols would establish temporary OPs in mutually supporting positions. If one took fire, it would generally suppress while another team would maneuver onto it. That could take a while, which meant multiple shots into each known or suspected position. If you figure one round through one window every second, two minutes will use 4 mags. The mission doesn't end at that point. You've now had your position compromised and there was more than one occasion when QRF got ambushed.
- I only recall one occasion when a fire team almost ran out of ammo, but that one occasion made it worthwhile. They got hit from 3 directions, the only fire team that could support them had just maneuved upon an attack 5 minutes earlier against a different position and had taken a casualty who couldn't walk, and almost every element within the company was either in contact or in a different part of the city and hauling ass to get there. Aside from that, I don't think that anyone ever fired more than 6 magazines, but there is a certain degree of comfort in having 3 magazines left, rather than 3 rounds.
- More mags allowed Soldiers greater leeway in putting in a fresh mag during a lull in the action. It was conceivable that you could fire half a basic load, but have used all of your mags if there were several lulls in the action where you put in a fresh mag.
- Many of us would load mags differently for day and night or specific targets. For example, many would maintain one mag of just armor piercing ammo, for vehicles. Some leaders would have a mag of straight tracer in their well during the day. At night, most of us kept a mag with no tracers in the well (no need for tracers at night, if your team can see your IR laser). So, if you're engaging just dismounts at night, you're playing with 7 mags - the mag of AP and the mag of tracer aren't getting touched unless absolutely necessary, or until the sun comes up, or until a VBIED comes barreling at you.

I don't recall anyone ever firing on burst. To me, that always seemed like an unhappy medium where it is no more effective than semi and significantly less useful than full auto.

3. ... Hopefully, no one ever got separated or was the only guy left and had to take care of himself. Or no dodo broke the rod or lost the bore brush...

Really, it wouldn't surprise me if some patrols didn't bother with any cleaning kit (other than a rag). Our dismount patrols generally involved dismounted movement for 30 minutes, establishment of an OP for 12 to 24 hours, and then repeat once or twice, and then return to base. Weapons really did not get that dirty, aside from some carbon buildup after a firefight, but if a team got into contact, they were usually extracted shortly thereafter because it was virtually impossible for them move about unobserved afterwards.

* I don't guess a WP grenade taped to a Claymore with three seconds of fuze and an M60 Fuse Igniter could be used for breaking contact there, huh?

Unfortunately, no.

[Ken White]

As I suspected, it all makes sense; I just had some difficulties adapting to today (my wife and kids say that is a constant... ).

Say no more:

"We didn't have them. I explained to the old lady (yes, a little old lady wearing a helmet and a plate carrier that I doubt could have stopped a BB), that I was not going to drive 45 minutes back to my patrol base to round up ID cards...[plus]it was a big deal for a Soldier to lose it..."

The Ammo makes sense in your sitchyation and I do agree -- not that it matters; y'all were there and I as not. I don't second guess under that circumstance; get curious, yeah -- but no "You should have..." from me.

Same deal on the cleaning kit (except I'd have carried mine anyway old habits die hard). Like the man said "Whatever works..."

Thanks again for the effort and detail. Gives me a far better picture.

[GC13]

Yeah, I don't think any soldier who had to fire his rifle in a firefight ever complained about having too much ammunition left over.

... Too much ammunition that he wasn't carrying for the automatic rifleman, anyway.

[William F. Owen]

rusiresources.com/equippingmilitary/Owen%20(Session%204).ppt

This was a presentation I gave at the RUSI. Upset everybody at the time. May be of some use here.

My basic contention should be obvious and one well known to the regular crowd here.

[goesh]

- if Jr. has on 400 lbs of plate armor, they feel better, it's a perception of competency/protection, essentially political IMO - may as well be humping a portable X-ray machine too.......

[Tom Odom]

Funny that I have the "old style" that closes down the front and everytime I go out, the guys around me tell me they wish they had the same as the overthehead stuff weighs another 30 light weight pounds.

I feel like the younger brother in Christmas Story after Mom has dressed him to go to school in the snow, sort of an armored plated Michelin Man.

Tom

[ODB]

Sorry for the delay in the top down building clearing answer. Many years back 10-12 years ago. I was doing some testing for the folks out of Benning. We were testing MOUT ladders, when I asked about the old grappling hook method we had been using, I got an interesting response. The Army stopped doing that, due to soldiers no longer possessing the upper body strength to pull themselves up the rope. Hence we were testing other options. Just think this was pre body armor days.