Reply With QuoteOn the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7868875.stm
Not exactly good news and note the headline, odd.
davidbfpo
University of Punjab instead of University of Lahore
My goof. The Institute referenced in previous posting by me is at the University of Punjab which is in Lahore, Pakistan. Apologies for my mistake.
Still fighting in Swat
On the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7868875.stm
Not exactly good news and note the headline, odd.
davidbfpo
Inside native Pukhtuns views on Waziristan terrorism
http://www.khyberwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5081
This blog post from Hujra Online (sub part of Khyberwatch.com) may be of interest as Waziristan in part is where extra Taliban fighters are now coming from into and out of Afghanistan.
See in particular post #54, dated 1-17-09, from/by Khan Baba.
Your feedback where possible would be of interest.
Last edited by George L. Singleton; 02-05-2009 at 02:11 AM.
Rather interesting
Most seems to support what one might expect to see and be consistent with some of the actions they took when first coming to power in Afghanistan. That said exactly what portion do you think is of greatest import considering your background in the region?Originally Posted by George L. Singleton
The fact that one particular subset which might have been thought of as a possible partner in Pak efforts to organize resistance (if I remember my readings correctly) is hard pressed to do so due to the circumstances under which power shifted, or the fact that seems like too many different factions exist for any one to be large enough to compete with the larger threat?
Or something else altogether?
Any man can destroy that which is around him, The rare man is he who can find beauty even in the darkest hours
Cogitationis poenam nemo patitur
Some more Pukhtun tribal problems background facts
Ron:
Your analysis is pretty much on target.
The pieces to this Pukhtun puzzle are as you noted are fragmented all over the place.
My simplistic analysis in discussing and watching this deterioration over there since 9/11:
1. Under former President Musharraf they did hit and run "fixes" in the troubled areas, FATA, Swat, Waziristan, Balochistan. Pak Army goes in, has a fire fight, razes homes of terrorists, then pulls back out.
2. Both under Musharraf and now under new elected President, husband of late Benazir Bhutto, jirgas and negotiations are forever on again, off again, to absolutely no lasting avail whatsoever.
3. Core struggle is over religion, pure and simple.
4. Pukhtun "belt" population as a whole have been among the poorest people in all of Pakistan, who factually or not in all alleged cases, have axes to grind with the central and regional governments (same cabal when it comes to governance). The "government" to them is mainly Punjabis who are also the majority of the successful business class throughout Pakistan, and nationwide the majority ethnic grouping in the total population.
5. In the Pak military there are a substantial number of Pukhtuns who find jobs there.
6. All Taliban being Pukhtuns, it is alleged, likely true, by commentators on their site (Hujra Online) that you now have "cousins fighting cousins", Pukhtuns in military of Paksitan up against Taliban Pukhtuns who in many instances are either blood kin or who grew up together as children, what we in the South here refer to as "near kin."
7. Attempts to use Frontier Corp troops instead of regular Pakistan Army troops to me, just my view, is a big part of the problem...as FC troops "are largely, not just some of them" Pukhtuns, and several times now in past two or so years I have felt the FC troops have both "changed sides" when it suited them to not kill each other (Pukhtuns) and to a lesser extent have mutinied and changed sides for good!
8. In Swat, where I have contacts both over there and back here in the States who go back and forth for family events, weddings and such, home visits, the Pak military only recently started to put troops into Swat for a more or less "longer" period of stay/posting, then turned around and made these troop placements into cantonments, ie, self contained "forts" and the troops then don't effectively go out, mix with the locals, and provide the security back up to the local police and to the people, who are openly still being attacked...in their own homes in a growing number of cases...especially those who speak out against terrorism and the Taliban are being attacked, as in murdered, in their own homes in front of other family members who "get the message" and cease resisting, in some cases, join the Taliban.
IDEAS FOR SOLUTION: Pakistan has to stop playing games to look for excuses to remove just placed major numbers of soldiers in these hot areas that in almost all cases now are in open revolt, where sectarian, ie, Pukhtun tribalism is mixed with terrorism, ie, Taliban, as anyone/everyone who hates the central and central appointed or allied/elected provincial goverment will and are now "reinforcing" each other against what I view as common sense "law and order" or the writ of law. At present, Pak Army has moved large elements to border with India using Mumbai terrorist attacks fiasco as an excuse to protect against a trumped up by the Pakistani ISI [excuse or allegation] of an imminent Indian military invasion. This whole damn "hate India" theme has been used since 1947 to keep Pakistanis from long term focusing on and getting lasting political fixes to internal domestic, economic, educational, etc, etc., problems.
The Taliban and al Qaida defacto have allies in the Pakistani Government, Army, and the ISI, as seen by most Pukhtun writers on Hujra Online, and I am starting to agree with them, as moving troops away from fighting terrorists to the stupid Indian border just lets the damned terrorists have the run of the ground in Swat, FATA, NWFP, Waziristan, and Balochistan ALL OVER AGAIN!
A MIDDLE GROUND of sane Pukhtuns do not totally reject the national/nationally backed provincial governments, and these are mainly YOUNGER Pukhtuns who have educations to even be on a website such as Hujra Online.
The hope, or failure of Northern Pakistan is largely with the high school and university age young men and women who are Pukhtuns. These in the main are who write on this site and who I communicate with as best I can.
MULTILINGUAL, not stupid, folks, these Pukhtuns. A typical educated or being educated today Pukhtun, is eduated in Urdu (the official language of the Pak Government is Urdu. Urdu is the identifying language of Punjabis, anethma to older Pukhtuns and to a growing number of younger Pukhtuns).
They then "chose" to save their culture via their language, which they also study and become fluent in, Pashtu.
To be effective in both the region and on a world level, focused on Pukhtuns overseas in Europe, Canada, and the US, they learn and are pretty good with English.
FINAL HISTORIC OBSERVATION: Some, but not all young Pukhtuns and very many older Pukhtuns in both Paksitan and Afghanistan (which is majority Pukhtun) go on and on about the DURAND LINE from early 1900s which is the official border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. When Durand Line comes up you are being told defacto that Pukhtuns want a united, to them reuinted, tribal nation made up of most of today's Afghanistan and large parts of Northern Pakistan. They exhibit no common sense about infrastructure, or lack there of, jobs, unresolvable poverty, lack of adequate schools...Taliban style Pukthuns of course are busy burning, blowing up, and killing teachers of girls schools all the time.
FAILING US efforts to dump billions of dollars worth of AID and development into Northern Pakistan. It is unsafe to go anywhere to build or do almost anything in N. Pakistan now without massive military protection, protection which the Pakistan military is NOT providing for foreigners, US, French, German, Chinese, you name one, to go out into the now boiling with terrorism and terrorists backward areas. Even loyal to central and provincial Pak government officials are as often as not murdered and unable to function outside of equivalent of well protected areas and cities..and even big cities ; the largest in North Pakistan is Peshawar, is infested with terrorists, bombings, murders, and fire fights of Taliban in groups with local police, Frontier Corp troops, regular Pak Army troops.
It is my crackpot theory that the worldwide recession, which overseas is already at depression proportions, is creating more suicide bombers and more and more of the poor over there have nothing to live for and religious terrorists are using their economic despair to "offer them Heaven on a bomb vest."
AFGHANISTAN as regards Pukhtun separatism is actually less of a problem than Pakistan as not only are the majority of Afghans Pukhtuns ethnically/tribally to begin with, but President Karzai himself is a Pukhtun.
Enough now from me, what say others of you or do you have questions, criticism, or want to narrow some of these shotgun blast statements from me? *Please overlook my many typos. Tks.
Last edited by davidbfpo; 02-05-2009 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Typo corrections
George, a couple of questions
1. Are the Pashtuns a monolith (as in the very basic map attached), or are they divided into distinct sub-groups geographically ?
2. If sub-groups, which (if any) are cross-border living in both Pstan and Astan ?
3. If sub-groups, which are Taliban-influenced ?
4. Is the Taliban a monolith, or does it have its own factions ("hard" to "soft" or some such qualitative measure).
The overall question is whether there are Pashtun sub-groups which the US could work with directly.
http://www.semp.us/images/Biot584PhotoG.bmp
This is a more detailed map of the overlapping mixes of ethnic groups in Northern Pakistan and Afghanistan, with Pukthuns clearly in the majority on both sides of this map.
Enlarge the map to see it better, maybe 11 different tribes, including Pukthuns, plus "others" catch all category.
Am doing more research to see if I can break down Pukhtuns into subtribes as you suggested.
http://pukhtunwomen.org/node/161
This PukhtunWomen website article uses 2007 US Army Manual info which does a very good job of breaking down into subtribes, etc. the Pukthuns in both Pakistan and Afghanistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_Tribes
I will try to find mapping which overlays these many, many tribes, subtribes, but finding such a map may take more than tonight's Internet scan.
Last edited by Jedburgh; 02-06-2009 at 12:45 PM.
George, thank you, for the start ...
and great links (especially the third); but this seems more of a life's work - very complex.from GLS
I will try to find mapping which overlays these many, many tribes, subtribes, but finding such a map may take more than tonight's Internet scan.
The general concepts in the Pashtun tribal structure are very familiar to me. This looks very much like the Gaelic Irish structure ca. 1100 - and to a lesser extent, the fused Gaelic Irish and Norman-Welsh structures that existed from ca. 1200 to 1600.
For example, the Pashtun kohols unit, explained here from the third of your links, based on gg-grandfather down, is much the same as the Gaelic Irish extended family structure under Brehon Law.
The Gaelic Irish structure was very much cross-linked (horizontally and vertically), but with a much smaller population. Suffice to say that the wrong step in one house could bring 100s of houses down on your head.
The Pashtun structure (as in the Irish based on genealogies, whether mythical or factual) has to be an order or two of magnitude more complex.
Perhaps, we should have a new MOS - genealogical officer in charge.
Pakistani Blog update on Swat
http://www.khyberwatch.com/forums/sh...59769post59769
Note message # 690 regarding Swat.
George, God love ya, please -and in concise and relevant terms - provide the "why" Council members should blindly follow the links you provide, here and on other threads. Council members deserve at least that much - right? - Dave
I second, with a recommendation.
George seems to have an interest in, special knowledge of, and generally to be well read on to, this locale and, particularly, the open source goings-on. Perhaps an ongoing "George's take on the Pakistani region" thread would be a good place to consolidate these occasional snippets. George's insights are interesting and I suspect that he has more knowledge of the region than many of us and probably has a different perspective. It would be a shame for his observations to go unread simply due to how they are presented.
Reply to SWJED on line note
SWJED:
I have introed these websites/blogs in some detail in recent days/weeks, and have received several in the open as well as indiviudal e-mails exploring them further.
As the war on terrorism, my view, has since 9/11 been centered in the Pukhtun belt, ie, both Northern Pakistan and most all of Afghanistan, I thought this as well as the past history of Muslim press articles I have posted on SWJ from both the Peshawar FRONTIER POST and Karach DAWN helped explain this.
Of course, if you have another view and different interests, that is good, but some on here, beside me, are also interested in knowing about the core hot fighting areas which impact our future success, or failure, in relation to our alliance with Pakistan and the new government of Afghanistan, both of which are spinning like a top in relation to Pukhtun terrorist actions these articles address.
Hope this explanation helps, and again, others have shown both on line and individual e-mail interest in same.
I have tried to post these blog and related entries in areas of general as well as Afghanistan interest, and am always subject to having these posts moved to correct topical section, which does happen, which is great by me.
Yes, I, too, am a red headed Irishman myself.
Cheers.
Last edited by George L. Singleton; 02-08-2009 at 03:34 AM.
Truce in the Swat Valley
On the BBC earlier: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7891410.stm
From this faraway observation point this looks like the "stop and go" policy stance seen so often under President Musharraf and Pakistani Army rule. Except this time the agreement is between the Taliban and the NWFP provincial government.
davidbfpo
Peshawar circa 1968
Hell, the AP is reading and plagerizing my quotes the bunch of cowards, most of whom write from over here about over there to begin with. They use native stringers in country who themsleves have often moved to Australian and write from there after "telephone" chats with the old boys back in the NWFP.
Here is a clip of Peshawar circa 1968 for those interested in same. I was in and out of Peshawar from 1963-1965, so this later date, 1968 clip is from a friend's cousin who served at my U-2 Base in Badabar after I had rotated stateside.
The US lost the lease (Operation Sandbag) for our intel and U-2 base at Peshawar/Badabar as of the start of 1969, when Pakistan swung into the Communist China economic and military alliance column.
http://www.vbs.tv/full_screen.php?s=...5DC&sc=1363196
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/archive...hp/t-3560.html
http://www.coldwar.org/text_files/Co...mesNov2008.pdf
http://www.6937th.50megs.com/
Enough already, right?
Last edited by George L. Singleton; 02-15-2009 at 10:47 PM.
BBC Panorama report
I missed this at the time of broadcasting (15th December 2008) by the BBC's premier documentary programme, Panorama and the reporter, Jane Corbin is good. It lasts 30; alongside the Pakistani Army and US Army explaining its actions the theme is on the wider apsects of UK CT having it's roots in Pakistan: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00g44l7
Some short clips of the terrain and interviews of failed suicide bombers too (later link made on suicide bombers thread).
davidbfpo
bummer
Only available in the UK
Any man can destroy that which is around him, The rare man is he who can find beauty even in the darkest hours
Cogitationis poenam nemo patitur
2/16/09 Peshawar FRONTIER POST lead story: SWAT!
US special envoy says Swat a real threat for all of us
As found now at: http://www.thefrontierpost.com/News....at=ts&nid=4073NEW DELHI (Reuters): An Islamist militancy in Pakistan's Swat region is a common threat to the United States, India and Pakistan, a special US envoy said on Monday, after meeting with India's foreign minister and top security officials. Seeking a greater role for India in stabilizing the region, Richard Holbrooke, the US envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan, said he discussed details of his visit last week to the two countries and shared his concerns about security. "For the first time in 60 years since independence your country and Pakistan, the US, all face an enemy that poses a direct threat to our leadership, our capitals and our people," Holbrooke told reporters in New Delhi.
The above lead front page story in the Peshawar Monday, Feb. 16, 2009 FRONTIER POST is worth the 30 seconds or less to read it. I have not been exaggerating how bad the Swat surrender by Pakistan is...it will be used now as a safe have (not on a common border with Afghanistan) to martial, train, and send terrorists into both Afghanistan and Kashmir/India side.
Grim continuing story of pro-Taliban flag ranks who run the Pak military and I repeat are undermining the President of Pakistan in the process, which means killing democracy and paving the way yet again for another military coup before the end of 2009 in Pakistan.
Last edited by Jedburgh; 02-17-2009 at 12:17 AM.
Bummer: riposte
Not sure why the link did not work outside the UK. This link goes to the Panorama website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/default.stm and then archived programmes for the item is: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00g44l7
If that fails (again) I can ask the BBC why somehow.
davidbfpo
Link works fine for the site
Just the Britain's Terror heartland vid says UK only
Any man can destroy that which is around him, The rare man is he who can find beauty even in the darkest hours
Cogitationis poenam nemo patitur
Young Pukhtuns identify new Taliban target areas
http://www.khyberwatch.com/forums/sh...60492post60492
Some of SWJ readers and commentators might be interested in particiular in message #1 found in the above blog site.
They are guesstimating that the Pakistani ISI backed Taliban will set up shop to attempt what I preceive to be another SWAT style coup from the named three locations.
They are apparently moving a few steps at a time, which means we should be able to stop them IF the President of Pakistan can figure out how to get the Chief of the Pakistani Army to control the ISI and truely fight the terrorists. Otherwise, it is a frustrating war on terrorism when you ally is simultaneously among your enemies.
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