Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
This isn't what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is people who's avocation happens to be the job. In other words, they are suited by personality and aptitude.
but acknowledging this aspect is valid -- anyone with a personality and aptitude is going to do any job better than one lacking the traits -- most of the rest is opinion and, like this one:
Actually, wartime is where the avocational scout or sniper is a) allowed to do the job regardless of MOS and b) really shines at it.
is partly true. This one is that due to the fact in wartime the rules structure dissipates. You did note I didn't deny that the structure and attitudes you cited existed -- I simply said they were not in my experience as pervasive as you seemed to say. I'll also note that those attitudes are more prevalent in peacetime and tend to disappear or at least diminish significantly in wartime.
Which takes serious time. Not something you can just say "you, you and you are now scouts or snipers - now go do that recon/occupy a hide site, in enemy territory, accomplish your mission and survive".
Depends on what you mean by serious time. In Viet Nam I got new kids (i.e. Basic and AIT completions w/about 6 months in the Army and newly arrived in country) up to speed in a couple of weeks to do all that -- those coming in from the Rifle Companies with three or more months in country took slightly less time (mostly due to having to break bad habits). That's for Scouts doing sneak and peek stuff; snipers do take more time.
...This is a pretty universal complaint, btw, and isn't the result of a few "bad" commanders.
I can believe that and will grant that lack of professional knowledge due to inadequate training and education -- and pursuit of knowledge by individuals creates an Army wide problem and leads to the syndrome you cited; I also contend that good Commanders can and do turn that stuff around.

Recall that I don't dispute the problem exists, I said that it did -- I also said it was in my experience the exception rather than the rule. Maybe the problem is that today's Commanders do things differently than in my day. We are, after all talking about the Army I was in in the 50s to 70s versus the one you're more familiar with currently, in the 90-10 period. It does seem to me that the Army is more hidebound than it used to be and it is absolutely more bureaucratic than it was. Bureaucracy can lead to a 'it's not being done our way' syndrome...
I'd say then, that you are pretty enculturated as an Infantry guy and are blind to the problem.
Gee, project much? 18Fs and 19Ds are Infantry? Who knew?

Of course, it could also be that I don't see it as an all pervading problem because I've been lucky enough to have been in more good units that bad ones. Sorry your experience differed.
(which makes me wonder why I'm wrestling the pig)
The anger thing, perhaps? You seem to enjoy wrestling a lot.
The problem is also that to an enculturated guy, the phoney-baloney prima donnas, wannabes and posers are hard to distinguish from the "real deal" guys who just act weird, look different and play with unusual toys, from an institutional standpoint.
Nope. Posers and wannabes always give themselves away by talking trash and not producing. Prima donnas look great but don't perform well.
There are all sorts of insiduous ways that the kind of guy who'd make an exceptional (not a plodder, just doing the job, school or no) recon guy or sniper is treated differently from his peers.
In other words, they aren't doing it your way? Yeah, I've seen a lot of that. Again, I don't deny that happens -- I just don't think it is the rule; you do. Your prerogative and we can disagree on that. We don't need to be disagreeable in that disagreement. I'm just trying to sort out the 'why...'
Primarily because he may not be that good at being "hoo-ah air-bone infantaree!" (sorry, I couldn't help myself)
I know you can't and I'm used to that from earthlings -- but IMO you're still not right in your assessment that only the eccentric can do the job. That's really what the issue is IMO, all the bit about treatment of eccentrics is a small part of the problem -- which is who can do it in combat (peacetime doesn't count for much).
or not care for the culture it's wrapped up in.
Then why would they stick around a culture they don't like, respect or agree with? No one today is drafted. Makes no sense to me that folks come in the Army, decide they hate it for this or that reason and stay. Why would one do that...
Of course, there's all sorts of decent specialty guys who don't have that problem, and I do not speak to them, lest they descend on this post in droves.
Yes, there are -- and while there are Infantry (and other branch) guys who are way too doctrinaire, there are also all sorts of guys in the Army who don't have the problem you attempt to tack onto them -- unless the Army has changed a whole lot more than it seems to have from my day...