Results 1 to 20 of 43

Thread: Virtual War

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Council Member nichols's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Stafford Virginia
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Sorry, been extremely busy for a while.

    This ties into sims/gaming

    We just deployed 6 DVTE suites (33 Dell XPS 1710 per suite) to II MEF. Additionally 22nd MEU left with a suite.

    1 Suite is going to Division Schools to instruct TTPs to Coalition Forces, we had the game company replace all English scripts/voice overs with Arabic.

    Tactical Iraqi has been extensively deployed to II MEF
    Tactical Pashto is going out the door
    Tactical Sahel French will be in the Beta testing stage in another month.

    Last September's Gazette has articles covering the DVTE.

  2. #2
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    1,284

    Default

    Is anyone aware of a computer simulation oriented toward COIN? And what level of sophistication can a "soft" computer game be expected to portray?

  3. #3
    Council Member nichols's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Stafford Virginia
    Posts
    290

    Default

    My suggestion is do not go down the rabbit hole for the ultimate COIN sim. Instead look for a simulation that allows the end user to modify the game play as needed. If the end user can not change the sim then you have a nasty loop where requirements being feed to the sim company will never catch up with real world scenarios.

    The second part is the Artificial Intelligence, JF Com is using AI developed out of the University of Pennsylvania that drives the AI according to the input that the 2 shop should have. There are some that say the best opponant is a human, in some cases I agree with this but for COIN type scenarios and I was your opponant, you would get a "nicholised" view of what COIN is. When the AI is the opponant, you get reactions that are based on outside source input.

  4. #4
    Council Member marct's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    3,682

    Default

    Hi Nicols,

    Quote Originally Posted by nichols View Post
    My suggestion is do not go down the rabbit hole for the ultimate COIN sim. Instead look for a simulation that allows the end user to modify the game play as needed. If the end user can not change the sim then you have a nasty loop where requirements being feed to the sim company will never catch up with real world scenarios.
    Some very good points, here, and they tie into one of the major problems with computer based games; the insbility to shift the programming elements on the fly. Personally, I think one of the best COIN sims is an old science fiction board game by GDW called Bloodtree Rebellion. It's based around classic Maoist insurgency theory, which is a bit of a limitation given current practices, must it's a very nice, parsimonious game.

    Quote Originally Posted by nichols View Post
    The second part is the Artificial Intelligence, JF Com is using AI developed out of the University of Pennsylvania that drives the AI according to the input that the 2 shop should have. There are some that say the best opponant is a human, in some cases I agree with this but for COIN type scenarios and I was your opponant, you would get a "nicholised" view of what COIN is. When the AI is the opponant, you get reactions that are based on outside source input.
    The flip problem is that the AI is the "nicholized" version filtered through a sim shop. AIs, in and of themselves, are frequently as dumb as the dumbest programmer involved in their creation.

    If you are going to use AIs in a COIN sim, then it would be best to "train" them to act as individual leaders in the AO, and update their training based on each subsequent piece oof intel relating to that person. This gets you your "outside source input". Have the AIs as individual "players", but also allow human "players".

    Which brings up the question of "rules". All sims are based on rules, but one key advantage that the board games had was their ability to create "simple" rules that would engage with other "simple" rules to produce a highly chaotic game.

    For example, let's suppose that we were going to build a COIN sim for Iraq. To my mind, one of the key "rules" would have to be concerned with the availability and cost of cell phones and 'net traffic as well as with their changing capabilities. Ideally, there should also be an LSI component that monitors speaches, graffiti, AIQ posters, etc. All of these are fairly "simple" modules, but they will create a highly complex and chaotic game environment - which is what we have in reality.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  5. #5
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    3,195

    Default

    I would say the best use for computers in this sort of exercise is as book keepers and for determining combat and other interaction resolution. If you're set on using computers, I'd suggest a MUD-type model. You will want live players on the "other side" and not an AI-driven opponent.

    Role-playing games would be another good source of rules. Not so much the newer ones (such as d20-based systems), because they have become enamored of many, many tables of questionable utility. But there are a number of older systems out there that could easily be adapted and "computerized" in some aspects.

  6. #6
    Council Member marct's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    3,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    I would say the best use for computers in this sort of exercise is as book keepers and for determining combat and other interaction resolution. If you're set on using computers, I'd suggest a MUD-type model. You will want live players on the "other side" and not an AI-driven opponent.

    Role-playing games would be another good source of rules. Not so much the newer ones (such as d20-based systems), because they have become enamored of many, many tables of questionable utility. But there are a number of older systems out there that could easily be adapted and "computerized" in some aspects.
    I'd totally agree with these points. One of the things that led me to get out of game design, and go back to school, was a growing frustration with the use of computers in games. Some of the best games ever designed were produced in the early to mid 1980's and the computer sims still haven't caught up with them.

    When you are talking about the "older systems" did you have any particular ones in mind?

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  7. #7
    Council Member nichols's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Stafford Virginia
    Posts
    290

    Default

    I wrote an article in last September's Gazette covering the current TDS (Tactical Decision-making Simulations) that the Corps currently uses. Current TDS are used for analytical and recognitional decision making. Our current efforts are to have a Mission Rehearsal TDS.........tough nutt to crack but we are bringing the pieces together.

  8. #8
    Council Member nichols's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Stafford Virginia
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    You will want live players on the "other side" and not an AI-driven opponent.
    We have run into problems when doing AT or COIN type missions with live players. I could read all the source material on who or what I', supposed to act like but at the end of the scenario you will be able to trace back certain nicholism that became part of me as I advanced through life.

    He's a good article of where we want to go next:

    http://www.seas.upenn.edu/%7Ebarryg/CultureGames.pdf

  9. #9
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    3,195

    Default

    Interesting stuff. Computer sims like that have always interested me, but I do have a bias toward stuff that uses real people on both sides. This is because you can still get free play and those wonderful "out of the blue" things that people (regardless of culture) will do.

    Marc, I would say that the old RoleMaster system (not the newer ones..second edition and so on) would be a good starting point simply because it can be "tweeked" into just about anything you need. It also has the advantage of having a stout combat system and a decent percentile-based system that can be used (to a degree) to model more complex actions and skills.

    And I agree with you about the mid-1980s being the golden age of game design. I look at the d20 junk now and want to scream. Spycraft alone has more tables than a chemistry lab, and 80% of them seem to have no use at all. I think designers lost sight of the fact that a computer is a TOOL, not a viable opponent in the same sense that the guy sitting across from you is. And don't get me started about computer "RPGs" and like.

    What company did you work for/run? I did some design work for ICE and a few articles for TSR back in the 1980s.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •