It's the Tribes (merged thread)

[jmm99]

held all of the areas of which you speak (except for North Africa; and the littoral areas and Anatolia taken by the Romans and held by the Byzantines) for much of the 1000-year period until they were conquered by the Arabs.

I have no claim to fame as a Persian SME; but something had to rub off in 1000 years.

[jmm99]

is what I was looking at ....

from tribalguy
I believe, but am not 100% sure, that Nasarallah is ((Musawi)) as well, if that is what you were referring to.

So, I don't know & you don't know. So far, we're batting 0-2 (one heck of a baseball team ).

Not an SME on the Jabal Amel, its history, genealogies and migrations; and definitely not an Arabist. Just looking at some folks involved in killing US Marines and agency people in Beirut a long time ago.

Here are some notes on genealogies [lots of current history on the folks named], for whatever they might be worth:

-----------------------
As-Sadr (or al-Sadr) - here used of a current family named after Grand Ayatollah Sadr al-Din bin Saleh ("heart of the religion") of Qom, a branch of the Sharafeddine family from Jabal Amel [1]. The Sharafeddine family itself is a branch of the Noureddine family, which traces its lineage to Imam Musa al-Kazim (the seventh Shi'a Imam), and through him to the first Imam, Ali ibn Abi Talib and Fatima Zahra, the daughter of the prophet Muhammad.

Iraqi & Lebanese al-Sadr descent from 1. Sadr-ed-Deen bin Saleh

[1X. Mohammad as-Sadr, Baghdadi leader of the 1920 revolution against the British government; exact fit in family presently unclear]

1. Grand Ayatollah Sadr-ed-Deen bin Saleh,

2. Grand Ayatollah Ismail as-Sadr (d. 1919-1920), son of Sadr-ed-Deen bin Saleh,

------------------- Branch A

3A. Muhammad Mahdi as-Sadr, son of Ismail as-Sadr,

4A. Ayatollah Mohammad Sadeq es-Sadr, a leading Iraqi cleric and father of Muhammad Muhammad Sadiq as-Sadr

5A. Grand Ayatollah Mohammad Mohammad Sadeq es-Sadr (1943 - 1999), also known as "Sadr II".

6A. Muqtada al-Sadr (1973-), son of Sadr II [5A], son-in-law of Sadr I [4C2], and great-grandnephew of Mohammad as-Sadr [1X].

---------------------- Branch B

3B. Grand Ayatollah Sadr al-Din al-Sadr (d.1954), 2nd son of Ismail as-Sadr,

4B. Imam Musa as-Sadr (1928-1978?), son of Sadr al-Din al-Sadr; a Lebanese political & religious leader and a cousin of Sadeq and Baqir. [2]

---------------------- Branch C

3C. Ayatollah Haydar al-Sadr (1891-1937), son of Ismail as-Sadr,

4C1. Isma'il, son of Haydar al-Sadr

4C2 Grand Ayatollah Mohammad Baqir al-Sadr (1935-1980), son of Haydar al-Sadr and a major Islamic thinker. He is also known as the "Third martyr" or "Sadr I". He is the father-in-law of Muqtada al-Sadr.

4C3. Amina Sadr bint al-Huda, daughter of Haydar al-Sadr, killed together with her brother.

----------------------------
[1] Jabal Amel - mountainous region of Southern Lebanon; shortened over the centuries from "mountains of the Banu 'Amilah", a Yemenite tribe (kindred to the Hamadan, Lakhm and Judham) settled in Syria, Palestine, parts of Jordan, and Lebanon (by its mythology, in pre-Islamic times). A Shi'ite Muslim area since ca. 7th cent. CE - Abi Dharr Al Ghafari, companion of the Apostle & Ali Bin Abi Talib, as initial proponents.

Hassan Nasrallah, August 31, 1960, in East Beirut's Bourj Hammoud neighborhood, ninth of ten children of Abdul Karim, born in Bazouriyeh, a village in Jabal Amel (to which, Hassan Nasrallah later fled). Nasrallah, after education in al-Sadr schools in Lebanon & Iraq, succeeded Abbas al-Musawi (ca.1952–1992) as leader of Hezbollah after Musawi was killed by Israeli forces, February 16, 1992. No genealogy in English (that I found) showing descent from Muhammad (possibly in Arabic).

[2] Disappeared in 1978 on a trip to Libya. Founded Amal - see Abbas al-Musawi & Hassan Nasrallah.

[tribeguy]

JMM - magnificent. Here's my contribution:

Musawi sub tribes of Iraq:

((Bayt Sayid Ahmad)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Mashkur)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Sharif)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Sharif)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Sharif)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Musa)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Musa)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Hashim)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Yunis)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-'Ali Basha)) ((Al-Dahiri)) aka ((Al-Dawahir)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Al-Nassar)) ((Al-Dahiri)) aka ((Al-Dawahir)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Al-Muhsin)) ((Al-Dahiri)) aka ((Al-Dawahir)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Al-Muhammad)) ((Al-Dahiri)) aka ((Al-Dawahir)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Bayt Sayid Musa)) ((Al-Sada Albu Hamad)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Ka'ud)) ((Al-Sada Albu Hamad)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Halil)) ((Al-Sada Albu Hamad)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Zaghayr)) ((Al-Sada Albu Hamad)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt 'Akab)) ((Al-Sada Albu Hamad)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Fakhar)) ((Al-Sada Albu Hamad)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Shaliba)) ((Al-Sada Albu Hamad)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Jabir)) ((Al-Sada Albu Hamad)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Sa'ad)) ((Al-Sada Albu Hamad)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sayid Hamud)) ((Al-Halu)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Al-Sayid Muhammad)) ((Al-Halu)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Al-Sayid Muhammad)) ((Al-Halu)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Al-Sayid Muhammad)) ((Al-Halu)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Al-Sayid 'Abdallah)) ((Al-Halu)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Al-Sayid Habib)) ((Al-Halu)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Al-Sayid Baraka)) ((Al-Halu)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Al-Sayid 'Abd-Al-Muhsin)) ((Al-Halu)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Bayt Sayid Safih)) ((Bayt Sayid Ahmad)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid 'Agul)) ((Bayt Sayid Ahmad)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Sa'adun)) ((Bayt Sayid Ahmad)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt sayid Dharab)) ((Bayt Sayid Ahmad)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))

((Bayt Sayid 'Ali)) ((Bayt Sayid Mashkur)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Masha'a)) ((Bayt Sayid Sharif)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sharif)) ((Bayt Sayid Sharif)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Al-Sayid Mutar)) ((Bayt Sayid Sharif)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
(Bayt Sayid Jasim)) ((Bayt Sayid Musa)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid 'Akla)) ((Bayt Sayid Musa)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Mashayikh)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Qaftun)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al Al-'Amili)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al Al-Batat)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al- Al-Danin)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al- Al-Fatal)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al- Al-Jaza'iri)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al al-Mahana)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al- Al-Mushat)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al- Al-Sayid Salman)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al Harmush)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al Mu'amin)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al- Sharaf Al-Din)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al- Wa'adh)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Al-Halwani)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Athiuwun)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-'Auj)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-sada Al-Baka')) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Bakara)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Bakhat)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Albu Badran)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Albu Halal)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Albu Halal)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Albu Hamad)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Albu Khayka)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Albu Nasir)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Albu Safir)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Albu Tabikh)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Dhiya')) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Fakhar)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Firaz)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Ghawalib)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Hadidiyun)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Halu)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Hamami)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Hawashim)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Hawashim)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada al-Hayadara)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Haydari)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Jalukhan)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Khursan)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-La'aybi)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Sada Al-Makasis)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Masaha'asha'un)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Mayikhiyun)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Muqram)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Muzan)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Nafakh)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))'
((Al-Sada Al-Na'im)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Nasabin)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Nawaji)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Qatana)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Qazwini)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((al-Sada Al-Samida'a)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Sayid Hamad)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Shara'a)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Shawka)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Ta'a)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Tawil Al-Baghdadi)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Wahab)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Bayt Abu Al-'Ays)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Bayt Al-Ahwal)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Bayt Al-Ashayqar)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Bayt Al-'Asimi)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Bayt Al-Hasri)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Bayt Al-Khalkhali)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Bayt Al-Sabubi)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Bayt 'Alu)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Bayt al-Wahab)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Bayt Wa'adh)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada)) ((Al-Rafa'iya)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Saida Al-Bahar Al-'Alum)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sada Al-Sayid Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Safih)) ((Bayt Sayid Ahmad)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid 'Agul)) ((Bayt Sayid Ahmad)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid Sa'adun)) ((Bayt Sayid Ahmad)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt sayid Dharab)) ((Bayt Sayid Ahmad)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid 'Ali)) ((Bayt Sayid Mashkur)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Masha'a)) ((Bayt Sayid Sharif)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sharif)) ((Bayt Sayid Sharif)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Al-Sayid Mutar)) ((Bayt Sayid Sharif)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
(Bayt Sayid Jasim)) ((Bayt Sayid Musa)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Bayt Sayid 'Akla)) ((Bayt Sayid Musa)) ((Al-Nur)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyun))
((Al-Sayid Yasin)) ((Al-Sayid Muhammad)) ((Al-Halu)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Al-Sayid 'Abdallah)) ((Al-Sayid Muhammad)) ((Al-Halu)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))
((Al-Sayid 'Issa)) ((Al-Sayid Muhammad)) ((Al-Halu)) ((Al-Sada Al-Musuwiyin))

I've got the locational data for the above sub tribes. The naming convention that I use is in the annexation format - name one belongs to name two which belongs to name three, etc. This format suits tribal analysis as it allows us to distinguist between sub tribves of the same name by claimed lineage. Of course, this is subject to change due to sub tribal attachment and other vagaries, but it makes sense from an "internal logic" viewpoint, considering that is how the Arabic naming convention and noun annexation works in Arabic. The Brits really dorked up their tribal studies in this regard - they tend to put the confederation first and then list sub tribes from left to right from largest to smallest, which impedes a great deal of understanding of where the live identities are, and where they are not. Then again, the Brits also drive on the wrong side of the road to this day.

Hence us Americans wondering which is the biggest tribe, as if that confederate identity was the only thing we needed to know. This still happes in country, right now, today.

I think I have more on the Musawis in Syria - but I have to go to work to get that, which I will tomorrow. Silly me for not bringing my work home with me.

I wonder what the Musawi network looks like going from Iran to Lebanon - I got most of that data - but the Lebanon part is hard to find.

I really appreciate why you are doing what you are doing. It's good to know that people like you are out there.


V/r,

Tribeguy

[jmm99]

Musa as-Sadr > Abbas al-Musawi > Hassan Nasrallah, tends to catch one's attention. Of course, their links are also explained by educational feedback between Iraq and Lebanon. But, some or a lot of this may be old family ties in the Jabal Amel.

BTW: Do you have anything on the groups called the Sharafeddine and Noureddine families (obviously transliterated & maybe a bit screwed up) ?

You will make more out of the Arabic section of this website (maybe someone could look at the Farsi). Hey, I can handle the English (such as it is). But, I can't determine whether the Arabic and Farsi add something of value.

[tribeguy]

I'll hit this tomorrow at first light. Let's see where this goes! The requirements, really, are a complete tribal study, if possible, of Hezballah. Not sure where I can find that.

V/r,

tribeguy

[jcustis]

Right now I am comparing the overall tribal population of Ninewah province with that in Mosul. I already did the Kirkuk/Al-Ta'amim data compilation, and will sit back and think about the results after I do Mosul. Since Kirkuk is a serious bone of contention vis a vis Arabs and Kurds, I'd like to find the major tribal influences from both sides of the fence to see if I can make any solid assessments on how events in the large cities that surround Kirkuk affect it. Not sure what I am going to find yet, but that's the plan for today.

I'm interested in how this pans out, as I just came back from Ninewah, outposted at the previously unoccupied airstrip south of Thari Al Ghara, where alliances/allegiances seemed very distinctly fracture along Kurdish/Yezedi lines and Arab ones supporting Sheikh Abdullah. Interesting place.

[William F. Owen]

I'll hit this tomorrow at first light. Let's see where this goes! The requirements, really, are a complete tribal study, if possible, of Hezballah. Not sure where I can find that.

Knowing not a lot about Hezbollah, other than what is relevant to their use of violence for political aims, I would be amazed if they had any tribal affiliation at all. Even if they did, it would be almost entirely irrelevant.

What is more, unlike in Israel and the occupied territories, I suspect that there is virtually no up to date data concerning the "ethnography" of Southern Lebanon or the Bekka for that matter - and it's in not in the Lebanese governments interest to do it, - where as Israel keeps and records extensive amounts of data for obvious reasons.

[Presley Cannady]

Whatever he's calling a "tribe," he's describing a gang. And while I don't doubt gangsterism is a strong undercurrent many of the insurgencies faced today, I'm skeptical that it's the dominant one--let alone the only one.

[tribeguy]

Knowing not a lot about Hezbollah, other than what is relevant to their use of violence for political aims, I would be amazed if they had any tribal affiliation at all. Even if they did, it would be almost entirely irrelevant.

I am more curious than that - the question to me is whether or not there is an area in Hezballah where tribal or familial affiliation is relevant. The mere presence of Nasarallah ((Al-Musawi)) at the top of that pyramid seems to indicate that he has credibility, and I believe that credibility was established before the Israel/Hezballah war. I think it would be wise to see if there is more than one member that comes from a noble tribe. It's a political Islam credibility thing, with mutual reinforcement between familial/tribal and organizational honor.

I initially agree that it's not totally relevant - but tribalism isn't dead in Lebanon - not totally, and where it does it exist it needs to be known. This has the potential of giving leverage to those in the field. So, I wouldn't just brush that off despite what we think we know about Lebanon today.

Hezballah has a Shi'ite power base, particularly amongst the poor. I suspect that there is a tribal element there, but that might be irrelevant, as you say. It also might be a gateway to understanding a great many things about the organization. If we can't entirely describe Hezballah from the inside out, maybe we can get something of value by analyzing it from the tribal periphery? So the question then becomes which are the tribes in Lebanon that are predominantly Shi'ite. I suspect that the Druze and Maronite communities keep tabs on these things. I'd love some academic leads into that area, if anybody has them. I do know that both the ((Al-Luhayb)) ((Al-Jubur)) and the ((Al-Sada Al-Musawiya)) have a presence in Lebanon, however, to what extent I don't know.

I'd also like to know about any intertribal and intratribal disputes, grudges, "fitnas," alliances, intermarriages and anything else that might seem like minutiae regarding the ((Al-Musuwi)) tribe, if anybody has any visibility into that.

jcustis - the ninewah thing is panning out interestingly - not on its own necessarily, but in combination with the other provincial studies and in context of the major players in the Sunni insurgency. The tribal picture really explains a lot about why Mosul is kind of a stronghold for the insurgents, particularly in light of noble tribal networks that go from Baghdad and Al-Anbar all the way to Ninewah. There are a couple of noble tribes with at least a secondary presence in each province north of Baghdad. It's interesting to review this data after being on the ground without it. A$$-backwards, but interesting - should have had this in 2003 before I ever set foot in country.

The source that I am using is biased somewhat - politicized to accomodate Saddam's tribal policies. That being said, I don't entirely doubt it, and consider it a tool to be validated or invalidated with field work. However, much of this data lines up nicely with what I have seen, so I am confident that it at least describes the tribal picture, and definitely the noble tribal picture, with a workable degree of fidelity. It's good to have 'Azzawi's work to compare alongside Al-Rudhan's - both had different reasons for doing their tribal studies, but they seem to intersect a great deal, so hopefully therein lies some of the truth.

I am looking forward to the census - although it too will be politicized.

V/r,

tribeguy

[slapout9]

Whatever he's calling a "tribe," he's describing a gang. And while I don't doubt gangsterism is a strong undercurrent many of the insurgencies faced today, I'm skeptical that it's the dominant one--let alone the only one.

You got that right!

[tribeguy]

Jmm - I took a cursory look at that web site, and it's dedicated to the mourning of al-sadr's death. I didn't have enough time to read the entire site, but I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I got buried in a bunch of projects today, and I'll have to finish those before doing any more in depth study of that site. The first section was the copy of an announcement that was written many years ago after the death of said individual. There was gratitude the ministers from foreign countries who had sent their condolences, and kind words were spoken about the daughter who had been left without a father. It also mentioned how he was a revered teacher in Islamic Sciences. After I got the gist of it, I looked through the rest of the selections, and it seemed to mean to be a bunch of fluff. I'll go through it in more detail when I have a few spare moments.

v/R,

[herndonja]

Sir,

I have a lot of data on sub tribes with cross border presence, Syrian and Iranian Arab Tribes.

If you have Analyst's Notebook, I can send you some products that I made on that very subject.

I have four years of boots on ground experience, I speak read and write Arabic and English fluently, and have a ton of successful experience in tribal engagement.

Please contact me for more details.

V/r,

Tribeguy

Tribeguy, I just got back from Iraq and would like to get more info on the tribes.

Jim

[selil]

An interesting discussion of social networks and network theory useable in ways he likely never considered. http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/se...s_we_lead.html

[Tukhachevskii]

I initially agree that it's not totally relevant - but tribalism isn't dead in Lebanon - not totally,

Agreed, but the case for/in Lebanon is particularly odd given the strong tribalism elsewhere in the ME. Because of its colonial past (and constituional present) sectarianism is a more important indicator of political alliegance than tribalism is, for instance, in Iraq or even Jordan. Hezbollah/Hizb-Allah in the mid 80s spent most of its time wresting Shi'a support away from the more secularist Amal and it remains so to this day. Indeed, unlike Yemen, where people talk more about their tribe and what it demands of them in Lebanon its their sectarian outlook that is largely overdetermined. However, that is not to say that triablism doesn't exist. As you say vestiges of it remain, obviously given the dminance of Arab culture, but in terms of Hizb-Allah the connections between clerical families in Iran (esp. Qom/Qum) and the ties those can generate (in terms of marriage alliances) tend to make greater waves within Hizb-Allah. Tribal politics tend, IMO, to be of greater concern to foriegn fighters who either transit the region or end up in the pay of local strong men. However, that said see the quote below...

"Interestingly, since the dozen men in the room are from the Baalbek area, and ten of whom are Shia (two of the hired guns are Palestinians from the nearly base of Ahmad Jibribl’s Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command) not one of them supports Hezbollah. “ That seems odd, Why not”? I ask.

Some of their reasons had to do will family/tribal feuds. Hezbollah arrested a couple of them for various reasons, one said. He claimed he was held 10 floors underground in Dahiyeh until his large family sent a tribal elder to Hezbollah and explained they would fight them if he was not released—he claimed he was out the next morning and explained how his order of loyalty was to God, family, tribe and then Lebanon. "

from here

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/...on-s-bekaa-val

The author is Franklin D. Lamb who is apprently doing research in South Lebnon for the Americans Concerned for Middle East Peace organisation. It might be worth emailing him for more info.

[tribeguy]

Tribal politics tend, IMO, to be of greater concern to foriegn fighters who either transit the region or end up in the pay of local strong men. However, that said see the quote below....

Sir,

What you said above negates what William Owen said. He thinks that tribalism is irrelevant in Lebanon. I wonder how much time he has spent with the ((Al-Luhayb)) of the ((Al-Jubur)) - they spend their time going between Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq! Could it be that tribes such as the ((Al-Luhayb)) of the ((Al-Jubur)) represent culturally organic lines of logistics that we refer to as "smuggling?" And if tribes are irrelevant to Hezballah - then why do we see concentrations of tribes that constitute Hezballah whereas other insurgent organizations are predominantly other tribes? Because society in the Middle East ISN'T tribal?

I think everybody here understands counterinsurgency theory well enough to know that what is important to the "green" population is what is important in counterinsurgency. Tribes are the culturally organic organizations that are important to the green population in Iraq. They have been for centuries. In the absence of a strong and effective government, such will remain the case, no?


-Tribeguy

[tribeguy]

Knowing not a lot about Hezbollah, other than what is relevant to their use of violence for political aims, I would be amazed if they had any tribal affiliation at all. Even if they did, it would be almost entirely irrelevant.

Very interesting Mr. Owen. How many books have been written in Arabic about tribes in Lebanon? Is Hezballah not a manifestation of currents within Lebanese society? Are not tribes a part of Lebanese society? Isn't it easier for terrorist organizations to recruit through kinship groups? Are there any Arab tribes that are common to both Iran and Lebanon/Syria? Isn't moving lethal aid through kinship groups that have been involved in smuggling for hundreds of years easier than trying to fabricate them out of people that don't know each other? Haven't Iran and Iraq been using kinship groups to undermine each others' states since their inception? Are recruitment and lethal aid irrelevant when it comes to terrorist organizations such as Hezballah?

What makes you think that tribes are irrelevant to Hezballah when you don't know the answer to the above questions - the answer to which all point directly towards the importance of tribes in all aspects of middle eastern society, not just Hezballah (SADR family of the ((Al-Musuwi)) tribe, Nasrallah related to Muqtada Al-Sadr, Baqir Al-Hakim AND Bahar Al-'Ulum!!!)? As if they all reached the same conclusions because they aren't related to each other? As if noble tribes weren't important in Lebanon as elsewhere?

Your assumption and bias against the relevance of tribes is based on not knowing the precise answers to these questions. In other words, you don't know what you don't know yet. Please post relevant questions or answers in the future, not assumptions.

The answers to all of those questions are unamazing to me and assuredly well known by Syria and Iran. And you had better believe that tribes are relevant to Hezballah. And please, don't come at me with what all of your Lebanese friends say. I have heard it far too often. Lebanese scholars have well defined the importance of tribes, as have Syrians and Iraqis. Or, go ahead and let the all knowing natives run their mind jobs about how sophisticated they are compared to other Arab nations. I don't drink their kool aid.

[William F. Owen]

What you said above negates what William Owen said. He thinks that tribalism is irrelevant in Lebanon. I wonder how much time he has spent with the ((Al-Luhayb)) of the ((Al-Jubur)) - they spend their time going between Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq!

hmmm... That's a bit of a stretch. Your point?
My initial contention was:

Originally Posted by William F. Owen
Knowing not a lot about Hezbollah, other than what is relevant to their use of violence for political aims, I would be amazed if they had any tribal affiliation at all. Even if they did, it would be almost entirely irrelevant.

Note that which is written in italics. Now, currently actually living among Arabs, and members of my family speaking Arabic, I am somewhat aware of the significance of "family" in it's broadest sense. However to assume that this influence is coherent and consistent across political and national dimensions of the Arab world would be grossly misleading.

Thus my initial point, that given Hezbollah's political objectives, - the ones they further by violence, - the tribal dimension is probably of little importance - especially as Hezbollah emphasises it's support and following from both Druze and Christians. See my point?

[Tukhachevskii]

What you said above negates what William Owen said. He thinks that tribalism is irrelevant in Lebanon. I wonder how much time he has spent with the ((Al-Luhayb)) of the ((Al-Jubur)) - they spend their time going between Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq!

Tribeguy,

Actually, what I posted was a link to the opinion of another commentator. Although having both studied tribal structures in the MENA at Uni as well as having experienced them in Yemen personally I can only speak for myself. Thus, I belive that the methodological reductionism that logically follows from your over-emphasis on tribal systems of governance does an injustice to the extremely complex political imbroglio currently extant in the MENA. That said, we know that tribalism played an immensely important role in Saddam Hussein's regime, which was deliberate and heightened, and still does though it is partly superveined upon buy sectarianism which was "supressed" as a politically motivating force. Also tribalism is very important in Jordan ,Yemen ,Pakistan and Afghanistan but less so in Egypt and Lebanon (previous caveats aside). In Pakistan and Afghanistan the tribal aspect is almost wholly isomorphic with the ethnic divisions of each country to such an extent that the explanatory value of isolating the tribal elements alone is about as useful as only focusing on the ethnic, linguistic or sectarian aspects. The structural metamorphosis that tribes underwent under the Egyptian and Lebanese regimes did not remove them but altered their significance and modus operandi. Tribes are not unimportant; their importance derives from the presence or absence of other political forces, trends, structures. As Lenin said (and, IMO, it was perhaps the only thing he said that ever had a ring of truth to it) "everything is connected to everything thing else". We must take that to the grundnorm of any comprehensive understanding of any political/military phenomena.

[tribeguy]

hmmm... That's a bit of a stretch. Your point?
My initial contention was....

Thus my initial point, that given Hezbollah's political objectives, - the ones they further by violence, - the tribal dimension is probably of little importance - especially as Hezbollah emphasises it's support and following from both Druze and Christians. See my point?

Stretch?

Let's see here - Hezballah exists in order to establish a caliphate. Caliphates must be ruled by direct descendants of Muhammad the prophet. Noble tribes are descendants of Muhammad the prophet. Noble tribesmen feel that they have a right and religious obligation to rule. Their supporters feel the same - it's the shari'a that compels them, and their pride. You can throw up the Israel thing as being Hezballah's raison d'etre, but it aint. They want power - and they'll either take it through the democratic process or through violence - whatever is easiest. And the Musawi tribe (vis a vis Nasrallah) is the prime beneficiary.

The insurgent organizations in Iraq, both Sunni and Shi'ite, are fighting to establish their versions of the Caliphate. What we see as sectarian violence is also a tribe war between the Sunni and Shi'ite noble tribes. It's an identity thing - they are both motivated by the same idea that their noble tribesmen have the right and obligation to rule the caliphate, should there be one.

The activities of the Luhayb are documented by scholarship - it's an example meant to drive home the point of the need to INVESTIGATE further. Since you are an Arabic speaker, I hope that it follows that you are an Arabic reader, as well. With this proficiency, I suggest diving all the way into the subject. Since neither one of us knows for sure, it requires that. However, I wouldn't be amazed if found that the majority of Hezballah's members come from the poorest Shi'ite Arab tribes in Lebanon, and that their recruitability stems largely out of economic need, perhaps MORE than the sectarian appeal. I hate to say it, but there is a social marxist theoretical application here that requires further exploration as well. Knowing the history of Lebanon and the concurrent "oppression" of shi'ites therein, this has to be a factor.

I see your point, but I don't concede it - not until the investigation of this issue is done. Such an investigation would require knowledge of what Hezballah's constituency looks like on a person by person level. It would then also require a thorough breakdown of Lebanon's tribal system using Lebanese scholarship.

Any Beiruti will tell you that there are no tribes in Lebanon. For Beirut, where there is relatively more government presence and effectiveness, this might be the case. But in the countryside, tribalism becomes more and more important. Where do you suppose Hezballah is strongest? Ibn Khaldun might suggest that if Hezballah is strong in the city now, then it is because they displaced those who were there before them.

For the sake of social dialectics, I'll conclude that tribalism as it pertains to Hezballah is more important than you suppose, and less important than I would guess. I place a lot of importance on the noble tribes as being key drivers of instability in the Middle East. As Nasrallah comes from the ((Al-Musuwi)) tribe, which claims nobility through Musa Al-Kadhim, who was a descendant of Imam 'Ali Ibn Abi Talib, and such Musuwis are important throughout the rest of Iraq as being high level leaders of insurgent organizations such as JAM, special groups, et al - I'm fairly certain that tribalism is an overlooked aspect in Lebanon's Hezballah, but not because it is irrelevant. It's because we drink too much progressive pan-Arabist kool aid, and because we are lazy and too prone to think that our Lebanese counterparts are "just like us." As if Hezballah is really just a political organization in modern clothes that isn't trying to get their version of a caliphate established...

Interesting subject - us Americans are just beginning to start studying tribes. The Brits were better at it 100 years ago, but they are as bad as we are now.

Regards,

tribeguy

[tribeguy]

I like your style - but see my post about noble tribes, caliphates re: Hezballah. Perhaps I do overemphasize it, but I think that most people just don't get it, including on this site. I am heartened somewhat that there people who have some degree of field experience, but I am disheartened by the fact that in the US all of 6 people graduated in 2004 with degrees in Arabic. I am pretty sure that none of them are here, although some seem to have a bit of skill with the language. As for me, I am comfortable with it as I am comfortable with English. Insert jokes about my spelling here.

V/r,
Sam