Rifle squad composition

[Distiller]

Both the ground troop head honcho and the pilot should have their asses kicked for such a stunt. I'm not against stunts, but they have to have some merit. Can't see one here, only the risk of 75 troops lying burnt and crippled on an Afghan mountainside.

[RJ]

and the ensuing hijack down the path of vertical envelopment , I feel the need to redirect to the original track. Rifle Squad composition.

In the past pages a mention of the Marine Corps testing of a 12 man squad under combat conditions surfaced. The Marines were going to test the one man shorter squad in Afganistan in 2007-2008.

Did it happen? And has there been any comments on this "new" size aquad and its effectiveness?

Did the Marine Corps make the first fireteam leader the squad leader with responsibilities to lead his fireteama nd the other two in his squad?

Any comment or statement about how this concept was received bythe troops and what kind of problems stuck their ugly heads up during the testing period, would be appreciated.

[B.Smitty]

Originally Posted by William F. Owen

30 Man Platoon Outline

Manning
1 Officer, 1 Sergeant, 2 Corporals, 2 Lance Corporals, 24 other ranks

Weapons.
30 x Individual Weapons/Carbines (5.56mm)
6 x 40mm UGL kits, or 40mm launchers
2 x GPMG (7.62mm)
2 x Long Range Rifles (8.6mm)
1 x 60mm Mortar Hand Held
2 x MAW, - Alcotan / Panzerfaust / 84mm
M72 type LAW and M200 type Rifle grenade issued as required.

3 x ATGM Posts held for Anti-armour mission

Communications
30 x PRR
6 x PRC-148 or 710 type multi-band hand held.
1 x HF Manpack
6 x Commanders GPS sets (PLGR) and PDAs

Night Vision
30 x NVG and IR Weapons pointer
4 x Weapons mounted Long Range Night Sight
4 x Thermal Weapons sight
6 x Light Weight Laser Range Finder

Organisations – organised by mission, transport and operational requirement.
2 x Multiples
Each multiple is 3 x 5 man teams. Each multiple Commanded by the Platoon
Commander, and the Platoon Sergeant.
3 x Sections
3 Sections of 2 x 5 man teams, or each section as 3,3,4 groups.
5 x Sections of 6 men
6 Sections of 5 men.

Transport (as dismounts)
5 x 6 man APC
4 x 8 man APC (2 spare seats)
3 x 10 man APC
10 x M/WMIK crews (2 Sections of 5 vehicles)

I just came upon this thread, so forgive me for posting so late.

Mr. Owen, I had a couple questions about your 30-man platoon TOE from way back.

I recognize the desire to pack more HE tossers into the platoon, but does this really leave enough basic infantry for CQB, room clearing, and so on in a 30 man platoon?

If you have 5 CSWs (2xGPMG, 2xMAW, 1x60mm mortar, not including ATGMs), you'll tie up at least 10 men carrying and supporting them. Take away two more for the LRRs, for a total of at least 12 soldiers tied up supporting CSWs or wedded to a big weapon. You may even tie up more as ammo bearers for the CSWs.

Add in 3 ATGM posts plus missiles and that's at least another 6 soldiers. Given that, and taking away the PL and PS, two thirds of your platoon will be non-door kickers.

I see you also include a carbine for each man in the platoon, allowing some men to drop their CSW and become riflemen, as needed. However can a foot-borne CSW gunner reasonably carry a carbine plus ammo in addition to his CSW+ammo? They are probably overloaded as it is (especially factoring in body armor).

[reed11b]

Smitty, if you have 3 ATGMs in use, you are probably not in a serious door kicking (i.e. COIN/CT) environment. If you are facing tanks, you probably are focused on that level of threat.
Reed

[B.Smitty]

Originally Posted by reed11b

Smitty, if you have 3 ATGMs in use, you are probably not in a serious door kicking (i.e. COIN/CT) environment. If you are facing tanks, you probably are focused on that level of threat.
Reed

Understandable, but then does the Company keep the ATGM posts when not in use? If that's the case, why not just have the ATGMs at the Company level and attach as needed to Platoons?

Regardless, even without the ATGMs, there are still at least 12 soldiers tied up with CSWs or LRRs. Is this a reasonable ratio of riflemen to CSW/LRRs?

On a separate note, I worry that rounds for the current crop of crew-served MAWs are just too heavy to carry in significant numbers. The average CG round weighs 3+kg. Most other MAW rounds are significantly heavier (IIRC, Panzerfaust 3 rounds are >10kg each). How many rounds does an average 2-man CG team carry? 4?

This is where the RPG-7 is nice. It has a range of rounds from 2kg to 4.5kg.

[William F. Owen]

Originally Posted by B.Smitty

If you have 5 CSWs (2xGPMG, 2xMAW, 1x60mm mortar, not including ATGMs), you'll tie up at least 10 men carrying and supporting them. Take away two more for the LRRs, for a total of at least 12 soldiers tied up supporting CSWs or wedded to a big weapon. You may even tie up more as ammo bearers for the CSWs.


Add in 3 ATGM posts plus missiles and that's at least another 6 soldiers. Given that, and taking away the PL and PS, two thirds of your platoon will be non-door kickers.

Who carries what weapon and when would be decided by the mission. This is what the platoon has available, NOT what the platoon carries. Items not in use would be back-loaded.

Nor are the scales absolute. I would expect the scales to vary with mission and the type of formation. Facing a lot of armour (could happen), you would need double the ATGM posts.

....and this is not the last word in TOE. It's merely an example to extrapolate things from. I'm speaking about scaling the platoon at a conference in Brussels in December, so I'll be working on this some more. Thanks for the interest.