Gunmen attack Fort Hood, Texas

[slapout9]

Secret Service Manual for Threat Assessment Investigations read and you will see a lot of similarities to the Ft. Hood Shooting. To me it is the bible and during my LE career I had cause to interact with some of the folks that wrote it and they are grade A just like the material. SWC own Randy Borum was/is one of them. Randy where you at man?


http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/170612.pdf

[jmm99]

from Schmedlap
I don't think that a lawyer can advise his client to deliberately break the law.

but, a lawyer can advise his client not only of the legal option (here obey the order), but also the maximum consequences, the minimum consequences and the probable consequences of not taking the legal option. It's up to the client to make his choice - call me (the lawyer) after you make your decision.

I have no idea of who represented MAJ Hasan and am not inclined to find out by calling some of my "lawyer buddies" or anyone else. That lawyer is not likely to say what he did or did not advise his client.

Going to the guts of the matter, a claim of CO status could also have been made based on his religious belief that non-Muslim forces should not place a foot down in Muslim lands - lots of Sharia authority for that. And, that would be a good time to advise the client of the consequences of refusing the order if the CO defense failed.

Guys, MAJ Hasan's classmate on Anderson Cooper (CNN 360, a few hours ago) told of Hasan's powerpoint presentations about Islamic doctrine, etc., in classes having nothing to do with Islam. I'm curious whether they found the AQ Reader among his possessions. Anyway, this guy's extreme Salafist views were not something recent but go back to Walter Reed classes. I expect that like statements are going to multiply as more and more people take their 15 minutes at the mic.

[Uboat509]

My 2 cents based on what is available right now, which isn't much. Something to consider, in my, admittedly anecdotal, experience a good many of those who go into the mental health profession do so because they have, or think that they have some type of problem which they think that they will learn how to fix. An anesthesiologist that I worked with once told me that the two medical specialties with the highest rates of drug abuse were anesthesia and psychiatry. All the reports about him seem to lend some credence to this. He had few friends and felt as if he "didn't fit in." All of the reports about him seem to point to him being very socially awkward and rather cold. None of this proves anything but I am leaning toward Omareli's theory. The more I hear about this guy, the more he sounds like McVeigh. McVeigh was not turned into a ticking time bomb by the ideology he encountered, rather he was already a ticking time bomb in search of an ideology.

On another note, I am really starting to dislike the less than subtle undertones of the reporting of this case. The USA Today, for instance, mentioned several times how many soldiers at Fort Hood had served tours in Iraq and Afghanistan even though that has absolutely nothing to do with Hasan, who never even served one tour. On NPR a guest host who was filling in for Diane Riehm asked some expert that she was interviewing if he thought that this would effect President Obama's decision on how many troops to send to Afghanistan, because clearly our soldiers are way overstressed, again, even though Hasan had never deployed. All this kind of rhetoric lends undeserved credence to the idea that some have that every soldier is a ticking time bomb. It never ceases to amaze me how many people already believe that every servicemember who has been to Iraq or Afghanistan is emotionally destroyed. This is not helping.

SFC W

[jmm99]

but here are Selected Works of Randy Borum.

From Preventing Targeted Violence Against Judicial Officials and Courts:

Assassination myths and ECSP findings

There are three beliefs about assassination that have been widely held and perpetuated in the popular culture: (1) there is a profile of “the assassin,” (2) assassinations are the result of mental illness or derangement, and (3) those who make threats pose the greatest risk. These beliefs, however, were largely unsupported by data from the ECSP and do not withstand critical thinking about assassination behaviors. Because these beliefs are untrue, they are now known to be myths.

Much fuller explanation in article. And some key observations:

Key observations on assassinations and attacks

A number of key observations about assassins and their behaviors have emerged from the ECSP. The first is that targeted violence is the end result of an understandable, and often discernible, process of thinking and behavior. Assassinations, attacks, and near-attacks, almost without exception, were neither impulsive nor spontaneous acts. The notion of attacking a public official or public figure did not leap into the mind of a person standing, for example, at a political rally attended by the president. Assassins were not impelled into immediate violent action by sudden new thoughts that popped into their heads. Rather, ideas of assassination developed over weeks and months, even years. For some would-be attackers, such thinking organizes their lives, providing a sense of meaning and purpose or an ending point when they believe their emotional pain will cease. For others, thinking about assassination is compartmentalized.

Some potential assassins engage in ongoing internal discussions about their attacks while maintaining outward appearances of normality and regularity. In every case, however, assassination was the end result of an understandable process involving the attacker’s pattern of thoughts, decisions, behaviors, and actions that preceded the attack (Fein and Vossekuil 1998, 1999).

More in the article.

[slapout9]

jmm99, that is right a lot of what this guy did happened in my own situation when I was ambushed at my house. The guy had started giving away his personal belongings and moving out some of his furniture just like Nasan a lot of other behvioral indicators are present to. In my case he had a shotgun, a .44 magnum, and a colt .380 mustang and he just opened up on me while I was walking to my front door of my house with my wife. I posted an article about it from a Police Magazine a few years back, it is on SWC somewhere I guess. All this happened after a 6 month stalking episode so a lot of what happend at Ft. Hood is pretty close to how these incidents happen. The Pathway to murder is the pathway to murder. As awful as it is there just isn't really that much mystery to them IMO.

[omarali50]

Originally Posted by slapout9

jmm99, ..The Pathway to murder is the pathway to murder. As awful as it is there just isn't really that much mystery to them IMO.

You remind me of the dialogue from "the usual suspects" where Verbal Kent says "to a policeman, things are not that complicated..." or words to that effect.

The immediate outbreak of Oprah style mumbojumbo on every network (including FOX where one cannot think it is motivated by fear of Islamophobia) shows that this goes beyond political correctness ...This is a culture wide phenomenon and its decadent and disturbing.

EVERY event seems to be followed by instant groupthink about "stress" and the emotional toll of tours of duty without even the most cursory attempt at some kind of logical connection. As an immigrant who supposedly moved here by choice, this is one of the things that sets my teeth on edge....is this terminal decline? I certainly hope not. But its shockingly common and almost automatic.

[MikeF]

Originally Posted by slapout9

jmm99, that is right a lot of what this guy did happened in my own situation when I was ambushed at my house. The guy had started giving away his personal belongings and moving out some of his furniture just like Nasan a lot of other behvioral indicators are present to. In my case he had a shotgun, a .44 magnum, and a colt .380 mustang and he just opened up on me while I was walking to my front door of my house with my wife. I posted an article about it from a Police Magazine a few years back, it is on SWC somewhere I guess. All this happened after a 6 month stalking episode so a lot of what happend at Ft. Hood is pretty close to how these incidents happen. The Pathway to murder is the pathway to murder. As awful as it is there just isn't really that much mystery to them IMO.

The LE and lawyers analysis from Schmedlap, Slap, JMM, and others is quickly overcoming my social scientist background. Words mean things and motive seems the appropriate term to capture perceived grievances, disgruntled emotions, and ideology as I'm considering this case and suicide bombers in general.

I had a sociologist brief a provactive lecture that the 21st century is going to be the century of the empowered individual. Not really anything new (John Brown comes to mind), but with the advances in technology in media, he suggested that we will see a rise in aggravated sensational murders in a twisted way to make a statement or influence policy.

I would suggest that we minimize this dude as a traitor and murderer. If we overeact and tighten security measures on bases, start broadcasting that soldiers are victims, or change policy in A'stan/Iraq, then he wins.

The best thing we can do is mourn the victims, praise the first responders as heroes, and get back to our normal lives.

Mike

[MikeF]

Originally Posted by omarali50

The immediate outbreak of Oprah style mumbojumbo on every network (including FOX where one cannot think it is motivated by fear of Islamophobia) shows that this goes beyond political correctness ...This is a culture wide phenomenon and its decadent and disturbing.

Omarali,

I have been considering your comments over the last several days, and I can only think of the damage that Major has done for American Muslims and Islamophobia in general. Last night, clips of radical Islamists in NYC were shown over and over praising this idiot.

My suggestion to Islamic leaders would be to have an IO message clearly stating to it's followers what a selfish and unIslamic act that major did.

I certainly hope that his actions are minimized. I heard an articulate Army Major (who happened to be Muslim) on NPR yesterday rightly state that Islam had been in America since we first introduced slavery and Muslims had been fighting in the Army ever since the Revolutionary War.

[slapout9]

Originally Posted by omarali50

You remind me of the dialogue from "the usual suspects" where Verbal Kent says "to a policeman, things are not that complicated..." or words to that effect.

Thank You, I take that as a compliment, because things are not that complicated. If you remember the end of the movie where they go through the whole process and discussion of Kaiser Soze (Kevin Spacey) he used a lot of lies and mumbo jumbo to cover up the fact that he was just a plain old criminal. A little smarter than most but still just a criminal.
Major Nasan hijacked a religion to justify his criminal action, just like David Karesh did in Waco Texas but that was Christianity not Islam, nothing but a vehicle of justification for a criminal act.

[Dr. C]

Originally Posted by MikeF

I would suggest that we minimize this dude as a traitor and murderer. If we overeact and tighten security measures on bases, start broadcasting that soldiers are victims, or change policy in A'stan/Iraq, then he wins.

The best thing we can do is mourn the victims, praise the first responders as heroes, and get back to our normal lives.

Mike

Mike: I hesitated to comment in the forum because I'm not sure what words are really best.

I have a few questions.

1. What is the correct leadership response? Isn't it possible that the Soldiers who were in the room and were shot at might need or want some time or help to heal emotionally before deploying to Iraq, or just Soldiering on?

2. How will the Army investigate itself about the career track of the shooter? Was the investment of tax dollars in his training and education worth the risk of keeping him in if there were any signs of trouble?

I grieve what's happened at Hood. It's obviously shocked a lot of people that a brother could kill his own. To be honest, I went through the grieving stages a while ago when these mass shootings started, especially at places like schools where classmates can kill people they sit side by side with on a daily basis. The response is usually more security, when I believe it's about individuals listening and paying more attention to their gut instincts. How can that be taught so people aren't just filed through the system if there are red flags?

One thing that has struck me as a civilian with no prior military experience is the assumption from military personnel, especially if they've lived most of their lives on Army posts, that civilians aren't used to being shot at or that we're so different we don't know how to be empathetic about their combat experience, for those in the military who have combat experience.

[jmm99]

not necessarily "minimize" - and definitely do not "maximize".

Mike, you gave the example of an Army O-4 (a Muslim officer).

Last nite, I listened to a Navy (ret.) O-4 (also a Muslim officer), who has formed an organization aimed at separation of Mosque and State (as he put it). More broadly, he sees American values not only in accord with Islamic values, but as providing the best way for Muslims to practice their religiion freely.

And, we have another Navy O-4 (a Muslim officer), Youssef Aboul-Enein, who co-authored Islamic Rulings on Warfare, which you will find discussed in this post.

Tim McVeigh and MAJ Hasan are good comparatives (credit: Uboat509). Whether the man hijacked the ideology or whether the ideology hijacked the man becomes a chicken-egg question. At some point, the two began working together and, in those two individuals, resulted in lethal mixes. Can lethal mixes be predicted and prevented ? I doubt it. Thousands of people read the Turner Diaries. Very few acted them out and none went so far as Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols.

[MikeF]

Michelle,

First, you should grieve. It's healthy. This was a tragedy, and it's sad. My heart broke when I heard about it. For many of us, it is frustrating b/c we can't do anything (lack of control).

Second, take my responses with a grain of salt. It's just the way my brain works. For the moment, with this specific case, JMM, Schmedlap, and Slap are more appropriate. I tend to analyze and consider many things at once (ie suicide bombers and this dude). There will be many times that I have to say I was wrong.

Originally Posted by Dr. C

1. What is the correct leadership response? Isn't it possible that the Soldiers who were in the room and were shot at might need or want some time or help to heal emotionally before deploying to Iraq, or just Soldiering on?

Most definitely yes, and from what I understand, we have already sent crisis response teams to Fort Hood. A combination of medical assistance, collective community grievance, and soldiering on is highly effective. For example, look at the differences in the gov'ts response to the Oklahoma City bombing and Hurricane Katrina. Over time, the resiliance of the people of OK can be perceived as a direct correlation to the initial response. It's the same response we take with combat stress teams in Iraq/A'stan. At one point, I observed a company collectively quit and refuse mission after they suffered severe casualties to include the company commander. After the crisis teams were brought in, and the unit was giving time to grieve, they were able to continue mission.

Originally Posted by Dr. C

2. How will the Army investigate itself about the career track of the shooter? Was the investment of tax dollars in his training and education worth the risk of keeping him in if there were any signs of trouble?

If I was king, I'd be closely examining his chain-of command. There would probably be a lot of people fired.

[MikeF]

and something that i'm working on towards a paper on martyrdom. As uncomfortable as this stuff is, Wilf and the Good Book constantly remind us that there is nothing new under the sun.


Remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me. I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of my enemies for my two eyes. Let me die with the infidels!

The military officer planned his final attack. During the last days, he took careful consideration and meticulous care in preparation for his decisive action. He would free his people. He was extremely bright, calculating, and highly successful. To some, he was considered awkward and aloof. He was deeply thoughtful, spiritual, and religious, and he knew that God had left him at times in his life as he struggled with women, power, and life. In those final days, he abstained from impurities, cleansed himself, and prayed for discretion and discernment. His motive was pure. The grievances of his people from the infidels was unbearable. His anger, frustration, disenchantment demanded action. God demanded revenge. That morning, he struck killing his enemies and sacrificing his own life for the greater good.

In the Jewish and Christian faith, his name is Samson, and he is celebrated as an epic hero of Herculian proportions. To the Philistines, he was a terrorist. It has nothing to do with religion, ideology, or the so called post-modern world.

[slapout9]

Time for some music. Going way back to Sam Cooke and The Souls Stirrers-If I Could Just Touch The Hem Of His Garment


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFnF1yn6jfI

[M Davis]

Originally Posted by Greyhawk

Caption: A first responder to a lone gunman's attack at Fort Hood Nov. 5 renders honors at retreat after aiding his fellow soldiers. U.S. Army photo.

That's my medic from my last deployment. I talked to him yesterday. He pulled 3 casualties out under fire. Not the first time he's put his life on the line. He's an outstanding medic and an outstanding soldier. Questionable taste in music.

[MikeF]

Army Releases List of Fort Hood Shooting Fatalities

One comment is that many of the victims were mental health care specialists. As the LE officials are studying targeting, it will be interesting to figure out if they determine the attack to be a target of opportunity, high-payoff target, or targeted assassinations.

I'm not a LE guy, but we tried to conduct the same types of investigations in Iraq in order to try to understand the enemies decision making process in order to counter these threats in the future.

Mike

[slapout9]

Originally Posted by MikeF

Army Releases List of Fort Hood Shooting Fatalities

One comment is that many of the victims were mental health care specialists. As the LE officials are studying targeting, it will be interesting to figure out if they determine the attack to be a target of opportunity, high-payoff target, or targeted assassinations.

I'm not a LE guy, but we tried to conduct the same types of investigations in Iraq in order to try to understand the enemies decision making process in order to counter these threats in the future.

Mike

Mike, it is really the same thing you did in Iraq LE just uses different words.
Gimme a minute to find something.


Short paper on Threat Assessment, preferably you do BEFORE the attack in order to prevent it and targeting is a big consideration, Taget shifting is very strong attack related behavior. That is why my Ring 5 has primary and secondary targets.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/threat.pdf

[MikeF]

Originally Posted by slapout9

Mike, it is really the same thing you did in Iraq LE just uses different words.
Gimme a minute to find something.


Short paper on Threat Assessment, preferably you do BEFORE the attack in order to prevent it and targeting is a big consideration, Taget shifting is very strong attack related behavior. That is why my Ring 5 has primary and secondary targets.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/threat.pdf

Thanks Slap. Yeah, we just watched episodes of the Shield and NCIS to figure it out.

[slapout9]

http://www.bbcamerica.com/content/115/index.jsp

This used to be my favorite. Wire In The Blood on BBC America but it must have been cancelled

davidbfpo, is this show still on the air in the UK?

[omarali50]

When I first started arguing about these things on the internet I used to insist that no one has hijacked Islam or misused Islam. Islam (and Christianity and Judaism and whatever) are not persons or single objects, they are social and historical phenomenons which have evolved and developed over time and by now there are as many Islams and Christianities as there are Muslims and Christians. To say its been "hijacked" is to assume that there is a "correct" version which Mr. X is misusing. But there is no reference version. There are only versions. And so on.

Now, I dont take that line as much, not because I no longer believe in it but because I can see that it is itself an expression of a certain secular philosophical viewpoint that everyone simply does not share. I still regard it as "correct" but I am less dogmatic about it in debate. I think its better to focus on fair-mindedness. I see Christians whose firmly held beliefs would place them far away from my worldview, yet who are so scrupulously fair-minded I am awed. I want to try to be fair and want others to be the same and I think things can be worked out. Or not. In which case, "the law will takes its course"..not just the law on a small scale, but law as in "natural law".

Finally, a couple of quotes:
Everything is placed in pledge, and a net is spread over all the living. The store is open, the storekeeper extends credit, the account-book lies open, the hand writes, and all who wish to borrow may come and borrow. The collection-officers make their rounds every day and exact payment from man, with his knowledge and without his knowledge. Their case is well founded, the judgement is a judgement of truth, and ultimately, all is prepared for the feast. (Rabbi Akiva)

But a more pessimistic take:

Could man be drunk for ever
With liquor, love, or fights,
Lief should I rouse at morning
And lief lie down at nights.

But men at whiles are sober
And think by fits and starts,
And if they think, they fasten
Their hands upon their hearts (Housman)