More training, less parading urged.

[SSG Rock]

Army chief Gen. Peter Schoomaker worries that soldiers are spending too much time marching in parades and “filling the bleachers” for retirement ceremonies.

So, on Thursday, the Army’s four-star leader challenged a group of trainers meeting at Fort Jackson to find better and more efficient ways to train soldiers.....http://ebird.afis.mil/ebfiles/e20060825452884.html

[SWJED]

For those that cannot access Current News - Early Bird Edition - here is a link to the original article in The State - More Training, Less Parading Urged.

[Stan]

Strange, I don't remember any parade being offered to me a decade ago when I retired. I do however remember being in many more than I care to count.

I would have thought with the current levels of activity around the world, the Army would be concentrating on sharpshooters and language experts.

Dress-Right-Dress has its roots and rationale, but practical at the moment ?

Regards, Stan

[Uboat509]

There are, unfortunately, a lot of leaders out there who thrive on D & C. They don't really know why it is important but they are good at it because it is relatively easy to be good at and so they overemphasize its importance. I can remember being told when I was with 2nd ACR in the mid '90s that anytime we had a group of three or more soldiers going anywhere on foot, then one of them was required to march the rest. Typical Joes, we just spread ourselves out so that there was never more than two of us walking together. It was not uncommon to see five or ten groups of two guys walking at ten meter intervals down to the motor pool in the morning.

SFC W

[Stu-6]

There are, unfortunately, a lot of leaders out there who thrive on D & C. They don't really know why it is important but they are good at it because it is relatively easy to be good at and so they overemphasize its importance. I can remember being told when I was with 2nd ACR in the mid '90s that anytime we had a group of three or more soldiers going anywhere on foot, then one of them was required to march the rest. Typical Joes, we just spread ourselves out so that there was never more than two of us walking together. It was not uncommon to see five or ten groups of two guys walking at ten meter intervals down to the motor pool in the morning.

SFC W

Don’t feel bad we were doing the same thing in 1AD.

D and C has its purpose but it doesn’t take much time be good enough at it. As for retirement parades and the like, total BS we waste soldier’s time and tax payers money just to stroke some fools ego. I’ll never forget we had a brigade change of command ceremony, the entire brigade had to come out for about 6 hours (counting practices time) the highlight was the wives’ choir singing every verse of the national anthem, soldiers where struggling to hold a salute for that long . . . what a waste of time.

[SWJED]

From the MCG forum - Close Order Drill in Iraq?

[nichols]

There is no place for COD in today's military. Teaching and conducting it only enforces first generation infantry tactics plain and simple. COD promotes the concept of "strengh in numbers" and the only way to have it is by have the troops all lined up to look pretty and go over the top in WW I trenches.

We are pushing for the Strategic Corporal, Distributed Operations, COIN, LIC, DIME or whatever today's neat acronym is while we cognitively pass on to the junior leaders that good military leadership is founded in marching the troops in squares.

Why bother with language, culture, tactics, techniques, and proceedures when all no need to do is stand in formation. COD, spit shined boots, pressed out cammies are like a good coat of paint being applied to rusted metal. It looks nice but the foundation will crumble at the most unopportune moment.

I HATE COD

[marct]

Hi Nichols,

There is no place for COD in today's military. Teaching and conducting it only enforces first generation infantry tactics plain and simple. COD promotes the concept of "strengh in numbers" and the only way to have it is by have the troops all lined up to look pretty and go over the top in WW I trenches.

Why bother with language, culture, tactics, techniques, and proceedures when all no need to do is stand in formation. COD, spit shined boots, pressed out cammies are like a good coat of paint being applied to rusted metal. It looks nice but the foundation will crumble at the most unopportune moment.

Do you feel that it has no place in moral and building an esprit du corps? I agree that as a combat drill, it is useless, but I think it still has an important moral function.

Marc

[Tom Odom]

Admittedly I am something of a radical on this and related phenomenon. My take on it is that there is no place in the Army for the pomp and circumstance anymore beyond 3rd Infantry burial and tomb guard elements. That means all the bands, choirs, sports teams like the Golden Kinights (And I am a broken wing skydiver), boxing, pellet gun shooting, etc etc are wasted slots that should go to filling combat needs rather than entertainment and recruiting PR that is (again in my admittedly biased view) misleading to say the least.

OK throw rocks!

best

Tom

[marct]

Admittedly I am something of a radical on this and related phenomenon. My take on it is that there is no place in the Army for the pomp and circumstance anymore beyond 3rd Infantry burial and tomb guard elements. ...

OK throw rocks!

Well, I must admit that I've never understood a military that requires 10 "support" people to send i fighter into the field . Personally, I think bands and, most definitely choirs (!) are great, but I really don't think that the members in them should be excused from combat duties.

Send the Pipers to Sadr City!
Let the Mahdi Army beware!

Marc (ex-piper)

[Stan]

Marc,
I like your attitude, you would have made a great NCO, albeit waaay tooo intelligent for the job

Do you feel that it has no place in moral and building an esprit du corps? I agree that as a combat drill, it is useless, but I think it still has an important moral function.

You are indeed very correct, COD were and probably still are for basic training, a means of building a sense of spirit and team work. Had to, the Drill would punish all the rest for one small idiot's mistake. You would later work out the problems at night

I also like Tom's approach. But then, he thought I worked wonders at times. However, I didn't get their on my own, I also had a drill who set me straight and emphasized in no small way, how important this would later become.

I'll let Tom decide if my Drill "dun good".

Regards, Stan

[marct]

Marc,
I like your attitude, you would have made a great NCO, albeit waaay tooo intelligent for the job

Hey, Stan. What can I say but that I'm a typical Canadian - read caught in the middle. My father and his father were NCOs and, on my mother's side, they were all officers (and portrait painters).

You are indeed very correct, COD were and probably still are for basic training, a means of building a sense of spirit and team work. Had to, the Drill would punish all the rest for one small idiot's mistake. You would later work out the problems at night

I also like Tom's approach. But then, he thought I worked wonders at times. However, I didn't get their on my own, I also had a drill who set me straight and emphasized in no small way, how important this would later become.

I'll let Tom decide if my Drill "dun good".

I think Tom does have a really good point, especially about the add-ons (i.e. too many people who don't know how to fight and will never face it). Honestly, for most of the support roles, you could hire civilians. Although, I am still in favour of combat pipers!!!!!

Marc

[Stan]

Ya know Marc,
Most everybody in the Army (yes, even the Pipers) are still required to learn other things before.....I'm not going there

Fighters, definitely not. But they are not excused from participation and accountability. You're next statement will then be very much correct, who would then send them to say, play the cry of battle. No One !

Ah, it was worth a shot !

[Tom Odom]

I guess I have a hard time seeing what exactly is the combat multipler effect of a Army choir, rock band, or whatever when we are cycling units to theater repeatedly. Granted the numbers we are talking are small and I am trampling over real and perceived traditions; but other perceptions count more--at least to me.

Drill and unit cohesion go hand in glove. Certainly they are a bedrock of building Soldiers--and yes Stan I would give your drill a copy of my book to show him that he did indeed do good.

Best

Tom

[Stan]

OK, if you buy "another" copy, I'll send it to the old fart !

Sorry, but I got a lot out of basic and COD. You take people from all walks of life and have (in my case at Ft. Bliss) 12 weeks to turn them into something.

I admit, CODs are different, but that was 1974. There was no Iraq, but in some way, the drill was expected to mold us into a team, perfecting our (ahem) mental faculties and moral character. Are you kidding ?

[marct]

Hi Tom,

I guess I have a hard time seeing what exactly is the combat multipler effect of a Army choir, rock band, or whatever when we are cycling units to theater repeatedly. Granted the numbers we are talking are small and I am trampling over real and perceived traditions; but other perceptions count more--at least to me.

I suspect that the combat multiplier of an army choir would be low - hire a civilian group for that (I can recommend a really good one ). A rock band might be useful IFF they were into heavymetal .

I think it's important to draw a distinction between "morale" and "entertainment". For morale functions, stay in-house. For entertainment, hire civilians or make them honourary Colonels.

Marc

[Tom Odom]

I think it's important to draw a distinction between "morale" and "entertainment". For morale functions, stay in-house. For entertainment, hire civilians or make them honourary Colonels.

You are correct.

In the mid-80s when we were creating Light Infantry Divisions the Army used the metric of how many troops we could get on so many C141 sorties. That was how we decided to get rid of cooks, trucks, and a host of other things found in a standard infantry division (which really has never existed because they all end up locally modifying themselves to meet the combat zone).

When the force designers were looking at this, one hard and fast rule came down from Mount Dept of the Army: thou shall not cut the division band. The justification used for maintaining the division band in the LIDs was they would become stretcher bearers in combat. This was of course necessary because the LIDs organic wheeled transport was cut to the bone.

Of course LIDs proved very mobile when it came to getting on airplanes. The real crux came when they had to get off said airplanes and walk. Soldier loads in excess of 100 pounds added great mobility to that equation, bucked up no doubt by the fact that the band was there to play marching songs and carry them should they collapse.

Best

Tom

[Steve Blair]

The whole band thing is even more amusing when you consider that they were not authorized during the period between 1866 and 1891.

Bands were maintained by subscription, typically found with the regimental headquarters, and manned by gunts detached from their normal companies. As an aside, during this period the band was also armed and held back as a reserve component if needed. Their band duties were considered secondary to their basic assignment.

Like so many "traditions," this one is more manufactured than real. It may hark back to the days when bugles and drums were used in place of radios, but then we should make all radio operators band members and be done with it...

[marct]

The whole band thing is even more amusing when you consider that they were not authorized during the period between 1866 and 1891.

Bands were maintained by subscription, typically found with the regimental headquarters, and manned by gunts detached from their normal companies. As an aside, during this period the band was also armed and held back as a reserve component if needed. Their band duties were considered secondary to their basic assignment.

Like so many "traditions," this one is more manufactured than real. It may hark back to the days when bugles and drums were used in place of radios, but then we should make all radio operators band members and be done with it...

Really??? Hmm, I think we've had ours continuously. BTW, I wasn't joking, well, too much at any rate, about sending the pipers in. My old Pipe Major was a British WWII vet who was captured at Singapore,held for 3 years, escaped in Burma and proceeded to run "Pipe Raids" against the Japanese camps. These raids used to totally scare the snot out of the guards and they would increase efforts to capture the pipers involved - sometimes to the point of sending out entire companies into the jungle where they would be sniped at. The Pipe Raids were actually quite effective Psyops campaigns.

Marc

[Rifleman]

It's well acknowledged that a man usually fights well when he has a strong sense of primary group. This manifests itself as current group, the men on his left and right, and historical group, those who've gone before.

Most people are capable of being moved emotionally by simple banners and symbols and a shared experience. Witness a shirtless, painted up idiot in freezing weather rooting for his NFL team. Gang violence over colors, symbols, and turf is another example.

To the extent that D&C can instill and reenforce a sense of primary group it remains a good thing.

Regimental days, parading in memory of some past deed of valor performed by a former member of the unit, can instill and reenforce a sense of primary group.

Retirement ceremonies do not.