Who are the great generals?

[Ken White]

Petraeus inherited a lost cause in what has to be one of the most complex civil wars in history...

Huh? Basis for that statement?

I thought it was extraordinarily simple compared to half dozen others, not least ours -- or Viet Nam's (45 years worth...). Much less the British; Taiping; Russian...

And speaking of Veet Nam, Don't believe the myth that Giap never won any battles. He may not have been in direct command but his forces won a slew of battles with US forces and even more against the ARVN -- the ones they lost were the larger efforts where the US was able to out number the opposition temporarily. When the bad guy initiates over 75% of your force on force contacts, he is emphatically not a loser. Viet Nam was a failure of foreign policy, no question -- but the US Armed Forces did NOT do it at all well. While some US units did very well, the one year tour (Personnel Policy). our training (Training Policy) and equipment all were problematic (R&D, Procurement and sustainment policies) all meant there was no consistency in US unit performance whreas Clyde and the PAVN / NVA were remarkably consistent. Giap did a better job IMO than any US General from WW II through today.

[j earl]

Huh? Basis for that statement?

I thought it was extraordinarily simple compared to half dozen others, not least ours -- or Viet Nam's (45 years worth...). Much less the British; Taiping; Russian...

Admittedly, other than Vietnam, I do not know details of the other civil wars, so I will give a few examples of what I consider complex (I just submitted a paper on sort of this same topic, maybe I will post it as well, it compares Tell Me How This Ends by Linda Robinson to Caesar Civil Wars):

An "infidel army" , that created a power vacuum now occupies the country.
The conflct between Shia and Sunni
The conflict amongst tribes and clans.
Support from Iran and Syria
Al Queda
Political mistakes along the way
Clash of cultures etc etc.

How do the others compare? When I say complex, I speak mainly of the social divides in play amongst belligerents.

[j earl]

Giap seems to have a pretty big following here, so I will cede this one. We will just have to agree to disagree. No worries, the great thing about a free country is we can believe what we want .

[MikeF]

Giap seems to have a pretty big following here, so I will cede this one. We will just have to agree to disagree. No worries, the great thing about a free country is we can believe what we want .

You need to read Mao. He speaks to the People Revolution. The same thing that Dave Matthews Band, Rage against the Machine, and Johnny Cash sing about. Before you take a stand, I'd suggest that you read my article, "The Break Point." It'll introduce you to Mao and an SF guy in Vietnam.

Mike

[j earl]

You need to read Mao. He speaks to the People Revolution. The same thing that Dave Matthews Band, Rage against the Machine, and Johnny Cash sing about. Before you take a stand, I'd suggest that you read my article, "The Break Point." It'll introduce you to Mao and an SF guy in Vietnam.

Mike

Thanks, will check it out tonight!

[Rex Brynen]

An "infidel army" , that created a power vacuum now occupies the country.
The conflct between Shia and Sunni
The conflict amongst tribes and clans.
Support from Iran and Syria
Al Queda
Political mistakes along the way
Clash of cultures etc etc.

.

How is that more complex than, say, the Lebanese civil war? DR Congo? Sudan? Somalia? Afghanistan? Indochina (a series of linked civil wars spanning Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia)?

[j earl]

How is that more complex than, say, the Lebanese civil war? DR Congo? Sudan? Somalia? Afghanistan? Indochina (a series of linked civil wars spanning Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia)?

Sorry, the topic is great Generals. I was using the example to make a case for Gen Petraeus, in my misguided attempt to say maybe some great Generals are serving today, premature I know, but still. Not to discount other conflicts, but if the topic is "great" generals then this is my case.

[Rex Brynen]

Sorry, the topic is great Generals. I was using the example to make a case for Gen Petraeus, in my misguided attempt to say maybe some great Generals are serving today, premature I know, but still. Not to discount other conflicts, but if the topic is "great" generals then this is my case.

As I remember, the subissue that you raised was complexity of the civil war, specifically:

[Iraq] has to be one of the most complex civil wars in history

Given that, it's not yet clear to me that Petraeus was strikingly more successful, than say, Major-General Ghazi Kanaan or Paul Kagame.

[Ken White]

but don't let that bother you, seriously, you've got tons of company. There's a tremendous amount of misinformation out there about it and it was a confusing war in a confusing time. You might want to read this (LINK), it's more accurate than many of the oft touted books by Academics.

Admittedly, other than Vietnam, I do not know details of the other civil wars...

and if that quote is true, was it not a bit sweeping to say that Iraq was "one of the most complex civil wars in history..." Just asking...

How do the others compare? When I say complex, I speak mainly of the social divides in play amongst belligerents.

You're the student so you can study those differences. I'd suggest that social divides are only rarely the most important aspect in the definition of 'complex' with respect to wars...

Giap seems to have a pretty big following here, so I will cede this one. We will just have to agree to disagree. No worries, the great thing about a free country is we can believe what we want.

His following here or elsewhere is not the issue -- what he accomplished should be.

Yes, we can believe what we want -- credibility is gained when one reacts to facts, not beliefs.

You've confused me -- that's easy to do, I'm old -- are you ceding on Giap or are you agreeing to disagree? I'm uneducated but I don't think one can occupy both those positions at once...

[j earl]

but don't let that bother you, seriously, you've got tons of company. There's a tremendous amount of misinformation out there about it and it was a confusing war in a confusing time. You might want to read this (LINK), it's more accurate than many of the oft touted books by Academics.and if that quote is true, was it not a bit sweeping to say that Iraq was "one of the most complex civil wars in history..." Just asking...You're the student so you can study those differences. I'd suggest that social divides are only rarely the most important aspect in the definition of 'complex' with respect to wars... His following here or elsewhere is not the issue -- what he accomplished should be.

Yes, we can believe what we want -- credibility is gained when one reacts to facts, not beliefs.

You've confused me -- that's easy to do, I'm old -- are you ceding on Giap or are you agreeing to disagree? I'm uneducated but I don't think one can occupy both those positions at once...

Thanks for the feedback. I say cede meaning I will yeild and not pursue the argument at this point. Since I will probably not have a chance to learn of every conflict, my use of "one of the most" was not an absolute. But in the conversation of great generals, I will stick to my view point that I rank others higher than him.

Good night all!