Mandatory Reading For Anyone Interested in the Middle East: The Israeli Lobby

[Dayuhan]

Jews lived in "Jerusalem" >2,000 years ago. There were Jewish States >2,000 years ago, where Israel is now.
There were no modern American-Europeans in the modern US, Canada, South-Africa, Australia or NZ.

Now I am not saying you should accept that as a justification - cos you clearly do not. ... but you need understand that it is the basis for something central to a religion, a belief and a people/nation - which is my point.

Yes, we all know that there were Jewish States in the area, and that Jews have lived there, just as there have been many non-Jewish states and non-Jews in the same area. The question is whether this entitles one group with roots in the area to unilaterally declare it "theirs", on terms unacceptable to the others, and eject, subjugate, or kill any who disagree. According to the standards by which we evaluate such things today, nobody can claim that "right".

Yes, the history is central to a belief. When you choose to act on a belief, and to assert a "right" that you've assigned to yourself, you have to consider the extent to which your effort to assert your "right" intrudes on the rights of others. All too often when action is based on assumed rights, we forget that once we speak of rights, we have to concede that the people on the other side of the fence have exactly the same rights. If we use violence to assert our rights at the expense of someone else's they will do the same to us. Whether this is "right" or "wrong" is not something I'm entitled to judge, it remains true in either case. The Palestinians have their own history, and upon it they've based their own idea; the right of return. They cling quite passionately to that idea, for which in the circumstances it's hard to blame them. They choose to pursue that idea through violence... is that surprising?

You may not like Zionists. I have no issue with that, but do not tell me what Zionists believe - because you clearly do not know - or that they are wrong to believe it.

There are some I like and some I dislike... I've never let agreement or disagreement have anything to do with liking or disliking people. The Zionists have their own perspective, and sometimes forget that the perspectives of others deserve equal consideration.

If we speak of the original Zionists, none of us know what those now dead thought. We know what they wrote, what they said (to the extent that it was recorded), and above all what they did. All of this is in the public domain, and accessible even to those of presumably inferior national capacity.

You may have your own version of Middle-East history.
Anyone who has spent more than 30 seconds in middle-east knows the narrative is the facts. So do not tell me which version of history is correct, especially if you have a less than detailed understanding of everyone's version. The BBC and Wikipedia isn't going to help you.

So we can keep going around on this, but if you do not understand that there are things I believe in, -which I do no promote here- then do not be surprised when I seek to counter attempts to misrepresent the truth as I know/see it - cos you don't live with the problem.

Many of us do have to live with the problem. Any American who lives, travels and/or does business in the Middle East or in the Muslim world has to live with it. Because of America's closeness with Israel, and because of the vast range of perception - accurate and inaccurate, with and without basis, and all shades in between - that surrounds America's closeness with Israel, the issue does impact Americans, sometimes severely. With or without justification, Americans are held responsible for the actions of Israel, over which they have little or no control... an awkward position to be in. Because of the relationship between the US and Israel, Israel's actions affect the US. If the Israelis aren't prepared to recognize this and adjust their actions, the US will have to recognize it and adjust the relationship.

Everyone in the picture knows/sees "the truth" in their own way, few of them agree, and all of them are inclined to believe that anyone who doesn't see it their way is less informed than they are. Rarely does anyone ever convince anyone else, but it's always a useful exercise to see the issue from the perspective of the guy on the other side.

PS: Moderators, please don't lock Wilf's account. If you have to lock someone's, lock mine, I spend too much time here already. And if you have to lock the thread, please let him have the last word