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Council Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 133
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#2 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,839
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Don't take it to the bank yet, but Debka.com is reporting that Germany released Hammadi in exchange for the German Hostage being held in Iraq who was released recently. If true, and it probably is, then not surprisingly this draws a clear connection between some of the insurgents/terrorists in Iraq and the Hizballah in Lebanon. I'm sure this story will get more interesting in time. Germany recently completed a very close election (the parties are still struggling to build popular support), and then there are rumors that this move positioned the new German head of intelligence to be more influencial in the Middle East etc. Bad news for now, but there may be a silver lining in this story yet, we'll see in a few days.
Last edited by Bill Moore; 12-21-2005 at 05:25 AM. |
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#3 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 133
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Diver's Killer Set Free in Lebanon (Wash. Times).
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#4 |
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Small Wars Journal
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,956
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Date: January 8, 2006 4:15:57 PM PST
To: president@whitehouse.gov Cc: vicepresident@whitehouse.gov Subject: ROBERT DEAN STETHEM Mr. President, I would like to provide you with an explanation as to why Muhammed Ali Hammadi's recent release by Germany, and your Administration's lack of any attempt to prevent it, is so upsetting to our family and to Americans everywhere. I am not writing you out of grief or anger but out of a hope that his example will inspire you to follow act on your own words and the dictates of your conscious in this War on Terror. Robert Dean Stethem was singled out, beaten beyond recognition and tortured in order to make him scream into a transmitter (so that the tower would send a fuel truck). Not a cry was heard to come from him, despite the brutal beating he endured. Instead he chose to remain silent and endure the beatings because he knew that the only way a rescue attempt could be conducted by U.S. forces was if the aircraft remained on the ground. After Robert was beaten and tortured and bleeding from puncture wounds all over his body, he was placed next to a 16-year old Australian girl. As bad as Robert was beaten, he had the courage and strength to comfort and console her. He told her that, "She would be okay and that she would get out of here alive." When she tried to return the comfort, he said, "No, I don't think so. I am the only one in my group that is not married and some of the guys have children, too." Some time later, Robert was again taken up to the cockpit and tortured in order to get the fuel. But it didn't work, he would not give in to them. One of the hijackers, Muhammed Ali Hammadi, was so enraged that he dragged Robert to the door, pulled a trigger and shot Robert in the head. Then he dumped Robert's body onto the tarmac. While Robert was being dragged to the door, he knew that all he had to do in order to live was to cry into that transmitter, but he wouldn't do it. He would not give in to the demands of the terrorists. He would not allow the honor and dignity of America to be intimidated by the fear and pain that Hammadi and terrorists everywhere represent. Robert sacrificed his life in order to protect our liberty and defend our way of life. You have rightly said, "Whether we bring our enemies to justice, or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done." You have truly said that "We are in a fight for our principles, and our first responsibility is to live by them." Robert lived by them. Robert also died by them. The motto of the USS SSTETHEM (DDG-63), named in Robert's honor, is "Steadfast and Courageous." I hope that his example, and the example of other heroes like him can inspire you to understand why allowing Germany to release Hammadi was a wrong. Justice was not done, Robert was not honored and Americans are not safer by allowing Hammadi to return to Lebanon and Hezbollah. You know this, we know this and the American people know this. The Stethem family |
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#5 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3,710
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Another story from CBC.ca. We really don't need this type of operation going on...
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__________________
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat... Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D. Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies, Senior Research Fellow, The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA Carleton University http://marctyrrell.com/ |
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#6 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Fort Irwin, CA
Posts: 818
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Throw this into the catagory of "Bad PR." I completely concur with Marc is that its stories like this that do very little for the greater common good. If true, it's a damning statement about the state of the intel community.
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#7 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,650
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That el-Masri was released (apparently dumped off on some street in Albania, oddly) and that Chancellor Merkel feels comfortable stating that Condoleeza Rice told her that el-Masri was innocent should indicate that the man was obviously not someone who deserved to be taken to Bagram and beaten the crap out of.
Now whether or not CIA agents should be subject to arrest for this is another story. Frankly I am amazed that there is not some kind of program to make amends and hush money to people we have snatched up in error (see also this guy). What happens instead is that these folks sue in righteous outrage and expose lots of things that the U.S. would rather not see come to light. |
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#8 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Estonia
Posts: 3,581
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Gentlemen, It gets worse.
Jane Fonda's little party raiser in DC is storming the Baltic press. She even managed to keep her banner with their website in plain view. Go figure. The bad part is on their site. http://www.unitedforpeace.org/ Quote:
What a bunch of Bravo Sierra ! Regards, Stan Last edited by Stan; 02-08-2007 at 09:02 AM. |
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#9 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Wonderland
Posts: 1,265
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This is a disturbing trend: European nations or their citizens suing or charging with crimes folks who make "mistakes" (or not) in the prosecution of the "War on Terror."
Innocents are killed, detained or otherwise in war. There needs to be a mechanism to deal with this. Guilty folks are also detained and later released, and being detained and released shouldn't be financially lucrative, whatever the compensation scheme. I served as an Interrogator for a few years, and nowhere in my training was it considered "okay" to torture a subject. Are we just throwing around the word "torture" liberally here, or are there really CIA guys with cattle prods out there torturing people? Either scenario is unacceptable, by my view. |
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#10 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Estonia
Posts: 3,581
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In yesterday's press:
http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/314720 Here's a brief translation (Slapout's still studying his Estonian :Quote:
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#11 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,650
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120mm, I think the main accusation in Maher Arar and Khaled el-Masri is that these men were kidnapped and then rendered to Syria and Afghanistan, respectively, where they both say they were tortured by foreign nationals for the CIA.
Not sure why you believe there should be no compensation. These men were innocent. They were summarily kidnapped, imprisoned for months at a time, and brutally tortured both mentally and physically, with no recourse to appeal or due process. Why should the government not compensate them for the government's error? |
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#12 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Wonderland
Posts: 1,265
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I'm sorry you misunderstood my post. I never wanted to even imply that there should be no compensation.
Note that I said there needs to be a mechanism for this. That mechanism would need to include compensation for real loss of income, inconvenience and may even be punitive in nature (accounting for pain/suffering). On the other hand, when we pick up a bad guy and then return him/her into the wild for whatever reason, we need to avoid rewarding them for "not being prosecutable just yet." I think the phrase "kidnapped" is being thrown around pretty loosely, here, as well. |
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#13 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,650
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I see --- so we are actually pretty much in total agreement about compensation, then.
I would not use the word "arrested" because these men were taken into a system that was explicitly extra-legal and were not accorded due process. Also, given the warrants issued in both Italy and Germany, it appears that the local and national authorities were not made aware (odd that this does not appear to have occurred in Canada, where the local authorities were complicit and have recently paid millions in compensation to Arar). "Detained" sounds, frankly, a bit too neutral given the ultimate fate of these and many other men. We did not take them to Syria for interrogation of the usual sort, for instance. |
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#14 | ||||
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3,710
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Hi 120mm,
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Marc
__________________
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat... Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D. Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies, Senior Research Fellow, The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA Carleton University http://marctyrrell.com/ |
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#15 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DeRidder LA
Posts: 3,949
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My fundamental concern is like Marc's but with a strategic self-interest:
If GWOT is COIN then the target is the global population. Short term benefits get overwhelmed by larger and longer lasting negative effects. It is basic risk versus gain analysis. Tom |
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#16 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,182
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This sad turn of events only reflects the general state of affairs of Europe. From the Jerusalem Post came an interview with Prof. Bernard Lewis, a prominent islamic historian, who made the following comment taken from the Post article:
"...He dismissed Europe in a few sentences, a continent doomed to Islamist domination by dint of its own "self-abasement... in the name of political correctness and multiculturalism." - that pretty much sums it up IMHO. |
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#17 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,650
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I believe it pretty much sums up Bernard Lewis' level of hysteria and detachment from the real world.
This is a man who proclaimed that the proper solution to our Mesopotamian governance problem was to impose the brother of the King of Jordan as the new King of Iraq. I think that would have made for an interesting contest as to who would have dragged the sword-hacked corpse of King Hassan through the dust first --- the Mahdi Army, the Badr Brigades, or the Islamic Army in Iraq? |
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#18 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,182
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seem collaberated with the thousands of burned cars in France and the drastic increase in assaults and the protection racket offenses in Nordic countries, Tequila. Some even say it is not safe to walk in any islamic enclave in most large European cities if one is not a true believer but who am I to challenge rumors of increasing violence amongst the ummah?
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#19 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 60
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I think this is the most compelling argument against these types of activities, if in fact they are occurring. That said, if there is an immininent threat, and other countries aren't dealing with their own problems, I see a need for this type of rendition. There is a reason they call it "covert."
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#20 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,650
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Goesh,
I grew up in a part of Brooklyn that most NYPD cops will not venture into alone. Let's just say that when I saw the French "riots" on TV, I laughed pretty hard. Burning cars? Are you serious? How many French people got killed in that riot, or even got their ass kicked? Let's just say it's a lot fewer than if certain types walked around my old neighborhood in the wee hours, or if my friends walked around other neighborhoods at similar hours. What's the homicide rate in France or the Netherlands? Come talk to me when it gets above the number of homicides in, oh, I don't know, Finland. |
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