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Doctrine & TTPs Enduring doctrinal principles, what really works now (or not), and the TTPs that deliver them.

View Poll Results: Evaluate Kilcullen's work on counterinsurgency
Brilliant, useful 26 45.61%
Interesting, perhaps useful 26 45.61%
Of little utility, not practical 1 1.75%
Delusional 4 7.02%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-23-2008   #201
Ken White
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Default Probably not a worry on several counts

but I would strongly suggest that any other queries with the slightest potential for an OpSec concern be addressed in P.M.s and not on the open board.

Last edited by Ken White; 05-23-2008 at 01:49 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 05-23-2008   #202
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but I would strongly suggest that any other queries with the slightest potential for an OpSec concern be addressed in P.M.s and not on the open board.
Noted. I've amended my comment.
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Old 05-23-2008   #203
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Yes, it can delay it slightly; conversely, if the media sells ad space and time, it bleeds and leads and that, too is manipulation of public opinion, inadvertant or not. That aspect can negate any manipulation the other way. The 1/3 rule applies; as you point out, the bad guys know this and can work public opinion as well or better than we can and they aim for that wavering middle third. Casualties are only part of the picture; for a few they are THE criteria, for most Americans results matter. More. Much more
You may be right, but to a civilian you sound a lot like Kerry. Much better to sound like a winner: "It's the causalities stupid."

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Perhaps the less the foreign CI gains the less responsibility they have for what happens after they leave.
I have little doubt that we're taking responsibility for their security, so that ultimately we won't be responsible for their security. The problem is that security is only one thing the various factions care about. It will be bartered away numerous times, between numerous factions, in a society where deals are never ending and the only permanent things are things we don't share: family, tribe, religion etc.
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Old 05-23-2008   #204
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Default Actually,

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You may be right, but to a civilian you sound a lot like Kerry. Much better to sound like a winner: "It's the causalities stupid."
a lot of civilians don't agree with you, which is my point.

Then again, one could agree that the causalities are indeed the cause...

Which doesn't mean the casualties are the causalities by any means and could mean that those who say they are the problem may be the ones who are stupid -- or maybe they just need to widen their conversational circles.

P.S.
Another PM just sent with text of first pasted

Last edited by Ken White; 05-23-2008 at 04:47 AM. Reason: P.S.
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Old 05-23-2008   #205
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Default Somalia

Interesting this came up, just had a discussion at work about this one. Some of the guys older than me (very few around these days) had some interesting insight on this from the SF point of view. Found it interesting they were doing the good "snake eater" thing in the bush until Big Army showed up and made them move into the stadium. Additionally the ODAs that were there when the whole Blackhawk Down thing went down they were not allowed to leave the wire, the ODAs were loaded up in their gun trucks ready to roll and were not allowed to. I found this quite interesting all things considered. Didn't mean to hijack the thread but thought this was important, considering intially it was being handled more along the COIN lines.
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Why did you not clear your corner?

Because we are on a base and it is secure.
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Old 05-23-2008   #206
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Default Big Army? Or SOCOM?

Might want to check on who did what to who. Also note that the 'who went to town' issue was a 3d Ranger Bn vs others issue. The Big Army 10th Mtn QRF was stalled so Rangers could lead the way. Garrison (The SOCOM GO on the ground) not big Army, is where one needs to look...
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Old 05-23-2008   #207
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Default Might want to have them check their memories.

If they'll recall, they worked for SOCOM at the time, not Big Army -- and Big Army couldn't tell MG Garrison what to do...

The issue of who went to town to help was a 3d Ranger Bn vs. everyone else issue; the big Army QRF from 10th Mountain was stopped so Rangers could lead the way. Big Army goofs it up on occasion -- so does SOCOM.
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Old 05-23-2008   #208
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Found this today on Col. Pat Lang's site.
By reading the comments found on this website, i've discovered the true cause for our problems in Iraq: Powerpoint!

For example:

Quote:
Power Point has given to the briefer class (those who brief but don't always think) new power.
Damn you Bill Gates! (shakes fist)

Last edited by stanleywinthrop; 05-23-2008 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 05-23-2008   #209
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If they'll recall, they worked for SOCOM at the time, not Big Army -- and Big Army couldn't tell MG Garrison what to do...

The issue of who went to town to help was a 3d Ranger Bn vs. everyone else issue; the big Army QRF from 10th Mountain was stopped so Rangers could lead the way. Big Army goofs it up on occasion -- so does SOCOM.
Thanks for saying that. I hate it when people critcize "Big Army" as if it's some unchanging monolith, or any shotgun generalizations. We all have our strengths, roles, and weaknesses. Changes of command play very heavy in any organization's outlook.
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Old 05-23-2008   #210
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Default A question, or two.

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Power Point has given to the briefer class (those who brief but don't always think) new power.
Have you read Dr. Kilcullen, worked with him, heard him speak, or know him?

Do you know what words accompanied this PowerPoint briefing?
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Old 05-23-2008   #211
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Have you read Dr. Kilcullen, worked with him, heard him speak, or know him?

Do you know what words accompanied this PowerPoint briefing?
That is the point I tried to address earlier - that slides only present part of a presentation - and often not the most important part - and are therefore open to misinterpretation when divorced from the actual presentation. People these days trade and forward PP briefings all the time and I think it's wise to be cognizant of the limitations of the medium. I frankly don't like the practice yet I see it all the time.
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Old 05-23-2008   #212
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Post This is a very valid point

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That is the point I tried to address earlier - that slides only present part of a presentation - and often not the most important part - and are therefore open to misinterpretation when divorced from the actual presentation. People these days trade and forward PP briefings all the time and I think it's wise to be cognizant of the limitations of the medium. I frankly don't like the practice yet I see it all the time.
and one that I had hoped we would see begin to be addressed through the use of newer technologies like face puppetry. The briefer would be able to give the briefing and be video taped after which the software is used to make an avatar of sorts give the brief in the different adobe or other models.

Imagine actually getting the rest of the story rather than having to wait for Paul Harvey to provide it later

It's easily doable and I agree that it might help avoid some of the selective pass on of information from such briefs by those who didn't necessarily get it in the context it was created with
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Old 05-23-2008   #213
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and one that I had hoped we would see begin to be addressed through the use of newer technologies like face puppetry. The briefer would be able to give the briefing and be video taped after which the software is used to make an avatar of sorts give the brief in the different adobe or other models.

Imagine actually getting the rest of the story rather than having to wait for Paul Harvey to provide it later

It's easily doable and I agree that it might help avoid some of the selective pass on of information from such briefs by those who didn't necessarily get it in the context it was created with
Heck, I'll get a sock and make a Kilcullen puppet if that would help. It might look like Lambchop, but we'll just have to work through that.
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Old 05-23-2008   #214
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Default I have an example

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Well, I'm a big fan of Dave's and thought the briefing was quite good.

Looking at my notebook, here are a few of the points I made during my commentary on it:

--Is there some other way to inject a pathology into the insurgent adapation process?

Steve, in our AO (Jazeera area between Ramadi and Fallujah in 2005-06), I was tasked out to both our infantry battalion and as a combat augmentee to the MTT w/ IA 3-3. We had to face the unfortunate discovery of many hundreds of weapons (Glocks, mostly) intended for IA and IP personnel come up missing from a "secured" shipping crate.

This led to much gnashing of teeth and beating of breasts, but I argued that there might be a plus to this, one that (without violating OPSEC) I saw was taking place.

One of the means insurgent cadres can keep order is by having a monopoly on weapons and the materiel necessary to wage war. While many consider AK-47s "fungible" in Iraq, this isn't exactly so. There are only so many to go around, and they cost money that unemployed MAMs find difficult to obtain.

When many hundreds of AKs and Glocks (hand guns) all of a sudden flooded the local market, many dozens of insurgents from Ramadi to TQ had a commodity that made them independent of the larger insurgent network. They could go it alone, and they could do so with weapons (hand guns) that have a unique cultural meaning (a symbol of authority in Baathist Iraq, they were typically used for executions or maimings, giving the men who possessed them a totemic quality the AK itself didn't confer).

As was famously said about The Velvet Underground, few bought their records but everyone who bought one started his own band. So too with the Glocks and the AKs that entered the market. They gave those who possessed them the ability to strike out on their own, with their own bands of recruited MAMs also dedicated to competing in the Darwinian world of illicit fuel sales, contraband smuggling, IED emplacement, etc, etc, etc.

As the network fractured, they were under less tight control by less intelligent and sophisticated SULs. In other words, a net gain for the good guys as the attrition carried itself out to natural conclusions.

C

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Old 05-23-2008   #215
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Default Thank you for the rest of the story.

Ken White,
Thanks for the other half of the story. I many times post these to get more than one perspective. It's always interesting to see how different the story is when looked at from multiple view points. Hence the reason for always second sourcing and never rely on the first report it is aways wrong (well 95% of the time).

Cavguy,
Wasn't throwing the blame on "Big Army", I haven't forgot that, that is where I grew my roots so to speak. If it came across as shotgun generalization it was intended to, it was a perspective from some of the guys at work.
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Why did you not clear your corner?

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Old 05-23-2008   #216
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Steve, in our AO (Jazeera area between Ramadi and Fallujah in 2005-06), I was tasked out to both our infantry battalion and as a combat augmentee to the MTT w/ IA 3-3. We had to face the unfortunate discovery of many hundreds of weapons (Glocks, mostly) intended for IA and IP personnel come up missing from a "secured" shipping crate.

This led to much gnashing of teeth and beating of breasts, but I argued that there might be a plus to this, one that (without violating OPSEC) I saw was taking place.

One of the means insurgent cadres can keep order is by having a monopoly on weapons and the materiel necessary to wage war. While many consider AK-47s "fungible" in Iraq, this isn't exactly so. There are only so many to go around, and they cost money that unemployed MAMs find difficult to obtain.

When many hundreds of AKs and Glocks (hand guns) all of a sudden flooded the local market, many dozens of insurgents from Ramadi to TQ had a commodity that made them independent of the larger insurgent network. They could go it alone, and they could do so with weapons (hand guns) that have a unique cultural meaning (a symbol of authority in Baathist Iraq, they were typically used for executions or maimings, giving the men who possessed them a totemic quality the AK itself didn't confer).

As was famously said about The Velvet Underground, few bought their records but everyone who bought one started his own band. So too with the Glocks and the AKs that entered the market. They gave those who possessed them the ability to strike out on their own, with their own bands of recruited MAMs also dedicated to competing in the Darwinian world of illicit fuel sales, contraband smuggling, IED emplacement, etc, etc, etc.

As the network fractured, they were under less tight control by less intelligent and sophisticated SULs. In other words, a net gain for the good guys as the attrition carried itself out to natural conclusions.

C

Excellent points! But I am hurt that you felt you had to tell me a Glock is handgun!! I carry a Model 27 (the subcompact .40)

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Old 05-24-2008   #217
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Excellent points! But I am hurt that you felt you had to tell me a Glock is handgun!! I carry a Model 27 (the subcompact .40)

That's not a gun THIS IS A GUN...


Lar Grizzly (45 Winmag)

Can you believe this was the standard firearm for my first job as a indian police officer?
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Old 05-24-2008   #218
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Default Holy Canon, Batman

Canon, cannon -- who's counting....
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Old 05-24-2008   #219
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Default Killing the Hydra

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They gave those who possessed them the ability to strike out on their own, with their own bands of recruited MAMs also dedicated to competing in the Darwinian world of illicit fuel sales, contraband smuggling, IED emplacement, etc, etc, etc.

As the network fractured, they were under less tight control by less intelligent and sophisticated SULs. In other words, a net gain for the good guys as the attrition carried itself out to natural conclusions.

C

I follow the logic and see the advantage, for now, but wonder if this may just be storing up a bigger problem for later. Not so much relating to the increased weapon pool but at some point - if the US forces are to extricate themselves and go home - political agreements need to be reached with armed groups and they need to be disbanded and/or integrated into the IA/IP. At this point dealing with a limited number of groups, with the control to make their agreements stick, is going to be much easier than thousands of individuals all fighting their own private war.

Last edited by JJackson; 05-24-2008 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Thought some punctuation might be helpful
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Old 05-24-2008   #220
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Canon, cannon -- who's counting....
I was waiting for someone to ask him what an "indian police officer" was. Transgender I understand, but transethnic?
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