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#1 | |
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Small Wars Journal
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia
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10 August Jerusalem Post - Analysis: IDF Fumes Over Denied Victory by Yaakov Katz. Quote:
Last edited by davidbfpo; 08-30-2012 at 11:46 AM. Reason: Add note |
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#2 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DeRidder LA
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From Israeli Dissident Yitzhak Laor:
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Before anyone (everyone) howls for my stoning, let me say 2 things. A. Laor is a dissident and as such he will state (overstate) his arguments to achieve his goals. I don't agree with his overstatements on the IDF; members of the IDF have on occasion stood against certain actions. As for a semi-miltaristic culture inside Israel, that is--for many reasons both regional and imported--quite a reality. B. But look at it as a glimpse inside internal Israeli angst over Lebanon and the situation as a whole. Best Tom |
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#3 | ||
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Small Wars Journal
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18 August Associated Press - Israeli Troops Criticize Army, Equipment.
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#4 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Roswell, USA
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Man, that is demoralizing. What happened? I wonder how Sharon would have responded from the beginning.
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#5 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
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It appears that Israel made several strategic mistakes in the conduct of this campaign, but I wasn't aware of that their Army was in such disarray until recently, and it “may” explain why Israel relied so heavily on air power in this fight, resulting a propaganda or moral defeat for Israel in much of the West and probably all of the Arab world.
This appears to be another situation where capable leadership was ignored and Air Power / technical enthusiasts won the day (but lost the battle) in Israel’s decision making process. There is no doubt in my mind that Israel has numerous experts in conducting this type of fight, but they clearly were ignored. Israel’s tactics resulted in very little damage to Hezbollah’s militia and actually helped Hezbollah politically. Furthermore the air attacks did very little to stop the rocket attacks on Israel. Ideally, Hezbollah should have been fought mano a mano with infantry, and probably with an amphibious assault to the north to conduct a pincher moment to block their escape routes. This would have been a bloodier fight, but it would have demonstrated Israeli political will and capability. Furthermore, since Hezbollah is state sponsored (not by Lebanon), then Iran should have at least received two black eyes and a fat lip as a warning they have going too far. What we have now is a narrative on the Arab street where Israel used their Air Force to kill hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians (true), and that their infantry couldn’t defeat the Hezbollah fighters. Now that the initial kinetic fight is over, the real battle for victory begins. While I think the Hezbollah can be still be defeated (I don’t mean totally, but significantly weakened) by the Lebanon and the West (Israel should be sitting this one out now), it will be extremely challenging. Hezbollah has many advantages: 1. The Lebanese people hate Israel for what they did to Lebanon. 2. The Hezbollah has an established chain of command and a strategy that they are implementing now (they’re inside our OODA loop). 3. Hezbollah is perceived as credible on the battlefield (the Lebanese in S. Lebanon trust them). 4. Hezbollah has an established infrastructure throughout Lebanon and will operate with information superiority. We on the other hand must rapidly introduce UN peace enforcement forces to facilitate Lebanon's Army in disarming the Hezbollah, which they can't do on their own. If the West and Israel can take the lead in the IO war (it will be hard after Israel's moral set back) and convince the people of Lebanon that the Hezbollah are the source of their problems and they are delaying the rebuilding the Southern Lebanon, then just maybe we can turn this into a victory. However, we have to form a coalition, work under a UN bureaucracy, and the ultimate key to success is an under funded, under equipped and poorly trained Lebanese Army. If I was Israel I would put an old war horse in charge of fixing their Army, they are going to need it soon. |
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#6 | |
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Small Wars Journal
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Location: Virginia
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19 August Washington Post - War Stirs Worry in Israel Over State of Military by Doug Struck and Tal Zipper.
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#7 |
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Council Member
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Assuming these articles are an accurate reflection of Israel's Army, then what are the security implications for the U.S.? Although I frequently have been disappointed with Israeli strategy in dealing with their security problems, they are an ally that we are obligated to assist if they get in trouble, and if Syria or Iran feel emboldened enough after Israel's latest series of combat operations to launch a conventional attack with a supporting asymmetrical line of operation, then I could see a scenario where the U.S. military will have to come to Israel’s rescue. It seems like it was only yesterday that this scenario was unforeseeable, and if it happens, how will it impact our relationship with the rest of the Middle East as we endeavor to make progress in GWOT?
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#8 |
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Council Member
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I'm wondering if economics played a role in the IDF's problems. I have read that they recently had enact a number of austerity measures to resusitate their economy. If money really is that tight then that might also partialy explain their reluctance to start the ground fight and also explain the shortfalls in equipment, training and logistics. That is assuming, of course, that the problems are as wide spread as we have been led to believe. I am always immediately suspicous of anything that comes from the main stream media.
SFC W |
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#9 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2006
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Somehow it is difficult to buy this line that it was because of poor kitting that the IDF did not make their mark.
In fact, poor kitting, poor equipment, no time to train etc are the favourite excuses that are trotted out whenever any army faces a problem that they can't solve or when they have failed to deliver. In fact, if the IDF was not ready to take on the Hizbollah terrorists, then they should not have gone in. Their Generals should have had the moral courage to inform their Political Leaders that unless they are equipped correctly, then they would be able to this much and no more. BBC informs that the reservists are not only complaining about kitting, they are complaining about rapid change of order (muddle) and incorrect tactics application. Any links to fathom as to what really went wrong? Something has seriously gone wrong somewhere since the IDF could thrash every time Arab armies as a whole and this time the rag tag Hizbollah has held them for 30 days. It is most surprising given that the tanks were said to be amongst the world best and the soldiers motivated since it was a fight for the very existence of Israel. |
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#10 | |
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Council Member
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Quote:
I wonder what could be the reason. Is it because of the state of art anti tank rocket? I believe RPG 29S was used. Is it because of poor tactics? Or, is it because the Hizbs were ingenuous in their tactics and use of weapons? Poor political leadership and decision making? Poor generalship? IDF actually being ill equipped but nonetheless launched? |
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#11 |
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Small Wars Journal
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... and while many are still digesting the "lessons learned – or unlearned" (and will be for some time) one reason might be the "operational pause" the IDF took south of the Litani River as the political leadership decided that international pressure to end Israel's Lebanon incursion was too great to bear.
Mechanized forces need to be "on-the-move" to be effective and are most effective in the conduct of "major combat operations." From first impressions the IDF faced more of a hybrid threat - heavy on the asymmetric with a sprinkling of conventional and reinforced with IO - and aided and abetted by a sympathetic and often supportive mainstream news media. This is just my initial gut-reaction - as more information becomes available I am sure many reasons will emerge. Other first impressions include an IDF over-reliance on air and lack of appreciation for the asymmetrical fight Hezbollah brought to bear - to include Hezbollah's (and by extension Iran's) use of IO - or "soft power" as referenced on another thread. |
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#12 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I doubt the RPG29 was the wonder weapon due to limited accuracy; guided missiles seem to be a more likely culprit. Even older missiles can deliver fatal shots to tanks from the tops, flank, and rear. If the IDF allowed missile crews to get behind them they would be vulnerable. As SWJED said tanks are designed for on the move fightin. . . with the enemy in front.
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#13 |
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Council Member
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The point about what missle or what weaponary was used is irrelavent. Israel used conventional weapons to attack a asymetrical problem. Like T.E. Lawerence theorized, you can not kill an idea. Hezbollah is an idea as much as it is an actual entity. If israel had used subtle political manuevering to poision the water around lebonon, by having Sunni opinion kill Iranian and Syrian imput, then they could have looked to strangle the hezbollah forces in southern lebonon. Instead they brought sympathy for hezbollah and the Lebonese people and killed any chance of accomplishing what they set out to do. So instead of asking what killed israeli tanks, we should ask why they used tanks or why they used planes. Maybe well placed acts of violence could have worked just as well. As with Iraq if their is a technology out there, it will have a counter measure and a why to beat it. The fact that it happens is rather pointless, it just means you have to find something else. I guess if any thing can be learned from this action is that israel could not control the battle space as we are having a hard time doing in our current operations.
Further, its good to still see good post and comments, didn't get much of that with the hooahs in benning. |
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#14 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Ray,
I respectfully disagree with your arguments. First, I didn't think the jest of the article was that Israel's failure was due to logistical shortfalls, but rather that the IDF has serious systematic problems, logistics being the most visible. Second, poor kitting and inadequate training "are" the reasons for many army's failures. Note the U.S. Army's experience during the initial phase of the Korean War. Obviously the tactics were far from ideal, but not so surprising from a defense force that can't get the essentials correct: kitting and training. Bill |
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#15 |
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I spent 18 months in the OPFOR at JRTC and my experience is that tanks tend to be very poor at fighting infantry, particularly infantry that isn't intent on staying still and providing an easy target. I have never been armor but it seems to me they get tunnel vision. A trick that I saw used effectively was to have a few OPFOR fire a few shot at the tank to get his attention and then run behind some cover. The tank would then follow and chase the dismounted OPFOR, right across the front of a T-62. Head to head an M1 is going to crush a T-62 every time but if the M1 is busy chasing infantry and not paying attention it tends to even the odds. The Israelis learned some hard lessons about infantry vs. tanks in the Yom Kippur war when they didn't have supporting infantry for their tanks initially. Back then the Egyptians were using the old Saggers which weren't terribly accurate to say the least. My mother has friend who was a tanker in the IDF back then and after one battle they counted something like 15 Sagger guide wires draped across his tank. Fast forward to this conflict with better IDF armor but also better enemy anti-armor and you can see the result. If the MSM reports from the battle are to be believed then at least some of the IDF infantry were poorly equipped, poorly trained etc. In those circumstances there might be a tendency to want to follow the heavily armored tanks rather than the other way around. At the same time an improperly trained tank crew might go into the fight buttoned up which would feel safer but which is much more dangerous because of the loss of SA. I will very interested to see the AARs form this fight. You know AQ et all will be too.
SFC W |
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#16 |
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 3,074
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Could it simply be that the Israeli army was a) overconfident because they had (some years back) smacked so many Arab armies around and b) rather out of practice when it comes to large-scale operations? They may also be seeing of the problems that can result from an army based on conscription - constant turnover leads to shortfalls in training and can also result in equipment being poorly maintained.
I also tend to agree that Israel has come to rely too much on airpower. Airpower is a good "sell," since it doesn't put many of your people at risk and does look neat when replayed on television, but it simply isn't the right answer in many situations. It is a great supporting component, but over-reliance on it can lead to problems. |
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#17 |
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Our own armor force learned in Vietnam (and possibly forgot it) that tanks had to operate with crewmen exposed in order to be effective against an enemy that used mainly light infantry. Tank commanders would often engage targets using their override, with the gunner assisting the loader to keep up a high rate of fire. They also mounted extra machineguns on the M-48s, as they learned that suppressive fire was very important. Makeshift gun shields were also very common.
Armor can be effective in these conflicts, but it often has to change its accustomed role. Failure to do so can be costly. |
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#18 | |
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Council Member
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This report says that the Hezzies were using Russian AT-5 Spandral anti tank missiles. The serial numbers on many of these indicate they were in a shipment sold to Syria. Apparently the anti tank missiles were abundant enough to use them as anti personel weapons. Hezballah would usually attack the IDF troops that had "taken cover" in a house. I don't know enough about the terrain in southern Lebanon, but if they could dig in a fighting hole would probably give more protection than a house.
Hezballah also got Brit night vision equipment that had been sold to the Iranians for a UN drug interdiction program. Indeed, Hezballah may have been better equiped than the Israeli reserve units. A father of several reservist wrote: Quote:
Last edited by Merv Benson; 08-21-2006 at 09:19 PM. |
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#19 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2006
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Quote:
I fully agree with what you have stated. I only wanted to state that one goes to war after taking all issues into consideration, weighing it against the enemy's capabilities and tactics, and being sure of an even chance of success. If war is thrust on you, then it is a different matter. In this case, the IDF had the initiative and launched the offensive. Thereafter, once in the fray, one must take the results of the events for what it is worth and not trot out 'excuses' (for the want of a better word). The IDF should have realised that the IDF was not well equipped, trained or whatever, to take on this campaign. Now, to state so as a reason, does not really cut ice. There will be failures in war or in life. One must squarely face up to them and not lament or find issues as "scapegoats". In 3O days, 30 Merkavas have been lost as per an Israeli newspaper. That is a lot if one considers the rag tag Hizbs. It is obvious that the Hizb tactics paid rich dividends. It is surprising that the Israelis did not find out about the Hizb tactics, when one is marvelled by the Israeli capability to be able to, with pinpoint accuracy, shoot down terrorist leaders on the move in a car or when strolling in gthe streets as in the Gaza strip! I wonder if any intelligence agency can equal that! Therefore, the IDF in Lebanon is quite a disappointment, apart from being a hue surprise for me. It is like a National team losing a football match to local club! Hence, it is important to know what are the lessons learnt and rectify the same rather than breast beat, if I may say so. Last edited by Ray; 08-21-2006 at 06:15 PM. |
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#20 |
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Council Member
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Thank you all.
One is aware of Infantry - tank equations and mechanised warfare as I was fortunate to experience the same in the conventional combat format. I could not agree more with the comments made by you all. Indeed, 'buttoning up' by tankmen is asking for trouble in such an environment. One of the safer ways is to be in the 'infantry leading' mode and tanks in support, especially in close country or in the urban scenario. I am not too sure as to what type of terrain the IDF confronted when these tanks were killed and so my comments are not to denigrate or suggest modes. They are mere conjectures. The Hizb tactics sort of tickles my curiosity. I am very keen to know more of the Hizb tactics since it will be used extensively elsewhere as it has become somewhat of a benchmark of success for those who wish to indulge in asymmetrical warfare. Any links or articles available for study? |
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