Homosexuality and Military Service (Merged thread)

[Ken White]

Maybe I'm out of it since I spend my life at echelons above reality now, but as little as eight years ago hostility towards anything or anyone perceived as homosexual was prevasive. Case in point, the murder of PFC Barry Winchell at Campbell back in 1999.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...l,%20Barry%20L.

As long ago as the 1950s through the late 70s in a number of infantry units, both Marine and Airborne, there were always Gay guys around and they were never a problem. Best Mess Sergeant I ever knew was as as gay as the proverbial three dollar bill and was campy as well -- Everyone in the 504 knew he was gay, Colonel on down. He spent his weekends in Raleigh and his weeks feeding great chow.

I have known literally dozens of them, ranging from (probably) an Army three star through (certainly) an SF LTC, a couple of Army Majors a Marine Captain and a whole bunch of lower ranks.

Not one ever had or was a problem.

Winchell was an aberration in a Division not noted for the greatest discipline in the world (and in which I served twice when it was still on jump status).

There have been others elsewhere and such things will always occur; they aren't the norm.

[Rob Thornton]

Winchell was an aberration in a Division not noted for the greatest discipline in the world .

When I was a PL in D/1/187th we (my section leaders, PSG and I) covered down on that platoon as an OC team during that BDE's DIV sponsored EXEVAL about a month or two before PFC Winchell was killed. Our observation was that there were significant command climate problems throughout that company, and there was a lack of mistrust and unit/individual discipline. When leaders cannot or will not work together only bad things will come of it.

Best, Rob

[CR6]

As long ago as the 1950s through the late 70s in a number of infantry units, both Marine and Airborne, there were always Gay guys around and they were never a problem. Best Mess Sergeant I ever knew was as as gay as the proverbial three dollar bill and was campy as well -- Everyone in the 504 knew he was gay, Colonel on down. He spent his weekends in Raleigh and his weeks feeding great chow.

I have known literally dozens of them, ranging from (probably) an Army three star through (certainly) an SF LTC, a couple of Army Majors a Marine Captain and a whole bunch of lower ranks.

Not one ever had or was a problem.

Winchell was an aberration in a Division not noted for the greatest discipline in the world (and in which I served twice when it was still on jump status).

There have been others elsewhere and such things will always occur; they aren't the norm.

My point, using the extreme and disturbing case of PFC Winchell as an example, is that my short 15 years in the military I have witnessed or heard of more hostility towards the idea of openly gay personnel than acceptance of it. I'm not so naive as to think they are not serving. A guy in my platoon at airborne school went on to become the first openly gay member of the AZ state legislature a few years later.

That being said, when DADT was a big issue in the early 90s, the hostility towards the idea of openly gay guys serving brought out a lot of ugliness whenever I heard the topic discussed among soldiers at Bragg. 15 years and two wars later, maybe it's not such a big deal anymore.

[Tacitus]

CR6: Your recollections of the attitudes towards the prospect of gay and lesbian soldiers pretty much mirrors mine. I've never been to Ft. Bragg, but I was in from '90 - '94, and spent most of my time with the Big Red One.

I never heard anyone express any racial prejudice. Most of the male soldiers did not have any problems with female soldiers. Among those that didn't have much respect for women in uniform, it wasn't unheard of to hear them say that they were probably lesbians. But I routinely heard some pretty hostile talk, even threats against any hypotethetical homosexual soldiers. Even from NCOs.

I never had a problem with someone else's sexual orientation. I never perceived it as a threat to myself. But I had met gay and lesbian students in school before, so it was not such an alien thing to me. I honestly think that some fellas have led lives so sheltered that they never knew any gay or lesbian people, and had all kinds of notions about them.

Anyway, I knew enough to shut up when the gay bashing was going on in the platoon, lest I be accused of wrongly being one. Self preservation can sometimes trump personal opinions, you know.

[Ken White]

My point, using the extreme and disturbing case of PFC Winchell as an example, is that my short 15 years in the military I have witnessed or heard of more hostility towards the idea of openly gay personnel than acceptance of it. I'm not so naive as to think they are not serving. A guy in my platoon at airborne school went on to become the first openly gay member of the AZ state legislature a few years later.

That being said, when DADT was a big issue in the early 90s, the hostility towards the idea of openly gay guys serving brought out a lot of ugliness whenever I heard the topic discussed among soldiers at Bragg. 15 years and two wars later, maybe it's not such a big deal anymore.

So has the action -- virtually nil other than a very, very occasional eruption like the Winchell incident. That one, like many in the civilian world, as likely as not brought about by our incompetent media concentrating on a non-event on slow news days.

Troops talk, bitch and moan. Like civilians, they'll harp on the topic du jour. Like the civilian world, some will act on their ranting. They will also smokestack and talk a lot of trash -- most of it needs to be noted but it rarely leads to much action. What they do, as opposed to what they say, matters. In the Army, decent, sensible leadership contains it, that simple.

I've got a serving son and another who was a Falcon (his brother and I have never held that against him ) and I live in a military town and talk to the kids occasionally so I stay reasonably abreast of the current attitudes. Todays kids are at least one notch above the 90s variant and about three or four notches above those around when I retired 30 years ago. You don't even wanta contemplate the 1950 version on the couth and acceptance scale...

Your last paragraph is very appropriate and correct, I think, attitudes are softening on the topic in the civilian realm, so too will they in the Green Machine. Reflection of the society from which they come...

The most significant problem with unfettered Gay acceptance, I suspect, will be on the subject and in the area of married enlisted quarters. Some of the more forceful wives can decide a bad example for their children is being set then the FSG and community honchos will really have fun...

[kehenry1]

My point, using the extreme and disturbing case of PFC Winchell as an example, is that my short 15 years in the military I have witnessed or heard of more hostility towards the idea of openly gay personnel than acceptance of it. I'm not so naive as to think they are not serving. A guy in my platoon at airborne school went on to become the first openly gay member of the AZ state legislature a few years later.

To mirror a comment above, it's been my experience that people in an organization mirror the leadership. If, up and down the chain, there is no tolerance for ill discipline or harassment, the troops are unlikely to do so. But, it has to be up and down the chain. It can't skip. The officers nor NCOs can make any public pronouncements "on the clock" or in private to members of the unit that state otherwise.

Frankly, it's been the same issue with integrating women in certain units. Even the hint that the LT or the SFC is unhappy and unaccepting usually leads to one or two in the unit making remarks or acting on that.

Although, I expect, in the case of women in the units, that will be less likely as the deployments with women continue and they are seen in more active roles than just "fobbits". Raven 42, combat medics, a captain I know is leading patrols in Afghanistan, the Civ Affairs that are actively "outside the wire", etc, etc, etc there are thousands that are operating in the "new terrain".

Which reminds me, do we have a thread about using women in Small Wars to effect the best culturally sound COIN?

[marct]

Hi Kat,

Which reminds me, do we have a thread about using women in Small Wars to effect the best culturally sound COIN?

The topic is spread around pretty much, although there is this thread. Why don't you start one?

Marc

[120mm]

Frankly, I was more fascinated by the use of Colonel (ret) Kerr's question, providing that he was a political "plant".

I'm sorry, I can't refer a CSMR "Brigadier" as anything but a b.s. "pretender" He's a retired Colonel, period.

[Entropy]

President-elect Obama's press secretary at a news conference today:

Thaddeus: Is the new administration going to get rid of the “don’t ask don’t tell” policy?

Gibbs: Thaddeus, you don’t hear a politician give a one-word answer much, but it’s yes.

Jump ahead to about 4:15 in the video to hear it.

[marct]

Hi Ken,

The most significant problem with unfettered Gay acceptance, I suspect, will be on the subject and in the area of married enlisted quarters. Some of the more forceful wives can decide a bad example for their children is being set then the FSG and community honchos will really have fun...

I suspect you're right about that . It might be interesting to see how they handle gay officers who bring their spouses down on exchange visits.

Marc

ps. I;m now getting ads for rainbowschristians.....