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  1. #1
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    Default Class not caste, carl

    Hey carl, I was having this conversation the other day with a friend when discussing this case.

    To look at everything in India through the lens of caste for India is the equivalent of using terrorism to understand everything about Muslim societies.

    Corruption, connections, class privilege, regionalism, gender, language dominance and caste, among all the other myriad motivators of human behavior, matter too. It's not that caste doesn't have an importance but the world is rapidly changing and with the migration of people from rural to urban areas and the rise of NGO activists of all types with that migration comes a very complicated and dizzying perspective of change.

    I can assure, those with more money lord it over those with less caste or no caste. A sense of privilege is complicated business. Why this mistake seems to keep occuring in American media of either a left or right variety is a surprise to me....

    Sorry for the lecture but you know me
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    Default Allegations of visa fraud are a serious business

    Breath in Deep: http://epaper.dnaindia.com/story.asp...&wintype=popup

    There are a lot of allegations being thrown around and the reports vary depending on which source you look at, so I would be very careful. Both the diplomat and maid have reasons to put things the way each one does.

    As for "Indian" opinion, if you look at the comments to many of the articles, you will find at least half of the commenters complaining about the behavior of Indian officials and they are sympathetic to the US case.

    It may be that the Indian government is reacting this way because the case hits too close to home, especially with the victory of the Aam Aadmi party and others like it.

    In addition, the practice of law in the US is different than in India so that is probably another reason for the misperception. Basically, I see a badly handled affair being egged on by various parties for personal benefit.

    It is hard to get at the truth with the poor reporting, too.
    Last edited by Madhu; 12-19-2013 at 01:46 PM. Reason: Added last sentence
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    Default Allegations of visa or immigration fraud are generally taken very seriously in the US

    In a highly unusual move for a federal prosecutor, US Attorney Preet Bharara issued a lengthy statement on Wednesday explaining the arrest of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade and saying she was accorded courtesies most other defendants wouldn't get.

    Here's the full statement:

    There has been much misinformation and factual inaccuracy in the reporting on the charges against Devyani Khobragade. It is important to correct these inaccuracies because they are misleading people and creating an inflammatory atmosphere on an unfounded basis. Although I am quite limited in my role as a prosecutor in what I can say, which in many ways constrains my ability here to explain the case to the extent I would like, I can nevertheless make sure the public record is clearer than it has been thus far.

    First, Ms. Khobragade was charged based on conduct, as is alleged in the Complaint, that shows she clearly tried to evade U.S. law designed to protect from exploitation the domestic employees of diplomats and consular officers. Not only did she try to evade the law, but as further alleged, she caused the victim and her spouse to attest to false documents and be a part of her scheme to lie to U.S. government officials. So it is alleged not merely that she sought to evade the law, but that she affirmatively created false documents and went ahead with lying to the U.S. government about what she was doing. One wonders whether any government would not take action regarding false documents being submitted to it in order to bring immigrants into the country. One wonders even more pointedly whether any government would not take action regarding that alleged conduct where the purpose of the scheme was to unfairly treat a domestic worker in ways that violate the law. And one wonders why there is so much outrage about the alleged treatment of the Indian national accused of perpetrating these acts, but precious little outrage about the alleged treatment of the Indian victim and her spouse?

    Second, as the alleged conduct of Ms. Khobragade makes clear, there can be no plausible claim that this case was somehow unexpected or an injustice. Indeed, the law is clearly set forth on the State Department website. Further, there have been other public cases in the United States involving other countries, and some involving India, where the mistreatment of domestic workers by diplomats or consular officers was charged criminally, and there have been civil suits as well. In fact, the Indian government itself has been aware of this legal issue, and that its diplomats and consular officers were at risk of violating the law. The question then may be asked: Is it for U.S. prosecutors to look the other way, ignore the law and the civil rights of victims (again, here an Indian national), or is it the responsibility of the diplomats and consular officers and their government to make sure the law is observed?

    Third, Ms. Khobragade, the Deputy General Consul for Political, Economic, Commercial and Women's Affairs, is alleged to have treated this victim illegally in numerous ways by paying her far below minimum wage, despite her child care responsibilities and many household duties, such that it was not a legal wage. The victim is also alleged to have worked far more than the 40 hours per week she was contracted to work, and which exceeded the maximum hour limit set forth in the visa application. Ms. Khobragade, as the Complaint charges, created a second contract that was not to be revealed to the U.S. government, that changed the amount to be paid to far below minimum wage, deleted the required language protecting the victim from other forms of exploitation and abuse, and also deleted language that stated that Ms. Khobragade agreed to "abide by all Federal, state, and local laws in the U.S." As the Complaint states, these are only "in part" the facts, and there are other facts regarding the treatment of the victim - that were not consistent with the law or the representations made by Ms. Khobragade -- that caused this Office and the State Department, to take legal action.
    No handcuffs according to one account. I would be very careful of stories from both sides....

    http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/de...bharara-460476

    Once again, if I can find the comments to the articles in the Indian papers, I will show you that "India" has varying opinions. Those that are the target of corrupt Indian officials may have a more nuance view of the situation than the upper classes which seem especially rattled by this case. I would encourage reading the comments to the Indian papers, you will find a mix of opinion where interpretation will vary depending on how you look at the comments.
    Last edited by Madhu; 12-19-2013 at 01:55 PM. Reason: added last sentence
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    Default "as the whole nation is inflamed"

    What evidence supports this grand assertion? Portions of the electorate are inflamed, the media is inflamed, the political class is inflamed, some middle class commenters appear inflamed, but I have seen a lot of complaints too against the type of person the diplomat is supposed to represent.

    The vast majority of people in India likely have never even heard of this case, I bet or it is of a peripheral concern.

    But what evidence supports either claim, yours or mine? Hard evidence?
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    Default American diplomats

    If American diplomats are not behaving according to local law, then the local law is responsible. But if the cases is only enforced when there is some largely political point to make, then it is not the rule of law.

    A difference between some countries and legal systems.
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    Default What's really going on?

    I am sure the anger is real and even deserved but what is really going on in terms of the public way all of this is being handled? Or, like the Italian fisherman case or the Advancort case, is their a sense that a certain kind of sovereignty must be asserted?

    Like most scandals that hit the public eye, the situation is often more complicated than initial narratives show.

    None of which makes me happy about a certain kind of policing in the States, I am just wondering about grandstanding for political effect?


    New Delhi, India (CNN) -- Led by an anti-corruption activist, a new political party that claims to champion ordinary Indian voters made a startling electoral debut in the capital New Delhi in regional Legislative Assembly polls, emerging as the second-most powerful grouping in results announced Sunday.
    The Aam Aadmi Party (AAP), which in Hindi means the Common Man's Party, won 28 of the 70 boroughs in the state of New Delhi in regional Legislative Assembly elections held on December 4, results posted on the website of the nation's poll watchdog showed.
    Headed by a former tax official, Arvind Kejriwal, the AAP was formed on November 26, 2012, taking up its election symbol -- the broom -- only a few months ago.
    Kejriwal -- who won a Ramon Magsaysay Award, regarded as Asia's Nobel Prize, in 2006 -- fought the elections himself, defeating New Delhi's three-time chief minister Sheila Dik#### by more than 22,000 votes in a poll that drew more than 11 million voters.
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/09/world/...lection-party/
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    Default Bet this looks good domestically given the political situation and election season

    India has taken a muscular stand in summoning US Ambassador Nancy Powell, stripping US diplomats of identification cards that give them diplomatic benefits, and removing security barriers outside the US embassy in New Delhi.
    Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/world/devya...ce=ref_article

    Because removing security barriers and creating an unsafe situation for people that have nothing to do with the original case, thereby punishing the wrong party, is a good way to handle things. I am sure other nations are looking at this and thinking, "what an impressive muscular show."

    The average Indian is probably, "so, when are you going to be this zealous about bad police treatment at home in India?"

    None of which excuses any alleged bad behavior by the Americans.

    Are there any adults left out there, any decent public officials on any side? Of course there are but what a depressing spectacle of incompetence by multiple parties.
    Last edited by Madhu; 12-19-2013 at 03:00 PM.
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    If American diplomats are not behaving according to local law, then the local law is responsible.
    This is a valid point.

    The Indian Govt rolls over and plays dead all the time.

    It sudden waking up does indicate that the ruling political party, which is down in the dumps and has lost four State election wants to project that it has suddenly developed courage to assert itself!

    Where were they when China and Pakistan heaped the indignities?

    The removing of special privilege to the US and its Embassy and Consulate staff or removing barriers should have been done long ago, so that there was a level playing field for all, since most countries are under the threat of terrorism.

    There is hardly any positive movement from either side of 'strategic partnership' beyond the cosmetic.

    Therefore, according special privileges not accorded to other nation is pointless.
    Last edited by Ray; 12-19-2013 at 04:17 PM.

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    This is a valid issue that requires attention

    Article 47
    EXEMPTION FROM WORK PERMITS

    1. Members of the consular post shall, with respect to services rendered for the sending State, be exempt from any obligations in regard to work permits imposed by the laws and regulations of the receiving State concerning the employment of foreign labour.

    2. Members of the private staff of consular officers and of consular employees shall, if they do not carry on any other gainful occupation in the receiving State, be exempt from the obligations referred to in paragraph 1 of this Article.

    http://www.mfa.gov.tr/data/Kutuphane...rRelations.pdf


    The maid was on an official passport.

    Her demand was also to get her a normal passport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madhu View Post
    Sorry for the lecture but you know me
    I don't mind and I don't think it is a lecture. It is just passing on some things you know that I don't. You, Ray and Omar are my go to girl and guys on the sub-continent.
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    Ray:

    All those things you bring up will be adjudicated.

    From what I understand Preet Bharara is a very sharp guy and a very hardnosed guy. On CNBC they always remark that he is one guy you don't want to be going after you.

    One interesting thing he brought up in the statement Madhu linked to is there is vocal exception taken to the treatment of Ms. Khobragade but not such vocal exception taken to the treatment of Ms. Richard.

    I have another question. Is Ms. Khobragade politically connected somehow? Is she related to somebody big? If she was a diplomat from Africa or Chicago I would say darn right she is. But I don't know about India so much.
    Last edited by carl; 12-19-2013 at 09:29 PM.
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    As I have no knowledge about the case itself I won't comment on the legal aspects but it is certainly difficult to imagine such a thing happening consciously to a foreign person of such status in Italy. Not that every foreigner is handled with kid gloves.

    Procedures may be procedures and everybody might get treated according to the same rigid rules but I'm pretty sure quite a few guys in Washington are less then happy about the actions. In general a more relaxed approach to persons with some diplomatic status is more diplomatic and benefits the host nation more. If the Indian side was informed by the potential issue over diplomatic channels I'm still somewhat surprised that the US side of those channels did not make it, in their own interest, 'clear' to the prosecutor stating that the specific dipomatic status 'did' protect her.

    The world of diplomats quite a few players will take note of the US way to interpret the specific status and on the actions of it's police force. Who knows what the future brings.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

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    +1

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    Firn:

    One of the characteristics of the American persona is that 'I am just as good a man as you are'. From that you get everybody gets treated the same, especially when dealing with the cops. Not that is an ideal, not always in play, but the ideal.

    If somebody from DC was to interfere with a criminal prosecution because 'She's special', that wouldn't go over too big with the Americans. No, that wouldn't go over at all. Not to mention that if the US Attorney could be so easily influenced with a discreet word, you don't really have the rule of law do you?

    Actually, for a lot of us flyover people, we don't give a hoot if the guys in Washington are less than happy. Defenestrate 'em.
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Firn:

    One of the characteristics of the American persona is that 'I am just as good a man as you are'. From that you get everybody gets treated the same, especially when dealing with the cops. Not that is an ideal, not always in play, but the ideal.

    If somebody from DC was to interfere with a criminal prosecution because 'She's special', that wouldn't go over too big with the Americans. No, that wouldn't go over at all. Not to mention that if the US Attorney could be so easily influenced with a discreet word, you don't really have the rule of law do you?

    Actually, for a lot of us flyover people, we don't give a hoot if the guys in Washington are less than happy. Defenestrate 'em.
    I actually expected such a response which contains some arguments I do admire to a good degree.

    I just want to add three line of thoughts:

    1) Looking at some stats and taking into account a couple of papers I have read it is quite obvious that people in the US tend to get treated differently by the security forces and judicial system according to gender, race, age, wealth and location. It is difficult to argue that the US stands out in equal treatment compared to other Western democracies. Overall a strong push towards an equal approach is good as it pulls it against all too common bias into the right direction.

    Interestingly sometimes a high status might cause you to get worse treatment because it can earn some agents points in the eyes of the public. You end up with things which are sometimes against the interest of the public but get it's approval and helps someones self-interest.

    2) I think it is undeniable that the person in question is 'special'. Not special as a human but as a rappresentative of a foreign power, even more so an important one. There is a long list of reasons manifested in human history and practical politics why diplomats get treated differently, especially if you are not on friendly terms with the other side. It costs a modern state in general extremely little to create a environment which can help to promote it's interests. If you want to screw another powers diplomant you want to do it for a good political reason as a 'bad' treatment of a rappresentative gets easily seen as a bad treatment of the whole nation.

    3) In my opinion it is not against the rule of law if the US foreign department interprets an international convention in a broad sense if it is in the interest of the nation and tells its internal organs so.

    Ray already mentioned in addition what angried a good deal of well-connected people in India:

    This case has got the majority of Indians indignant, not on the legal aspect, but the violation of diplomatic niceties and moralising with pious justification, more so, when US diplomats pay less than a one dollar to their paid help in third world countries as is reported by the US documents itself! I wonder how come the US Govt and the US courts do not find it a violation, when the Embassies and Consulates are taken to be US territories! Surely, the pontificating US State Dept can take suo moto congnisance. And what about the only court in the world that gives Justice (as is claimed) – the US Courts?
    I have no doubt that the Italian/European reaction would be quite similar.
    Last edited by Firn; 12-20-2013 at 12:41 PM.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

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    Default Tracing back ...

    from arraignment before the Federal magistrate (pursuant to the DoS complaint which we have) about 4pm, she was in custody of the US Marshals Service from about noon. This was the most verbatim statement I could find, as reported by PTI, US Marshals (Press Trust of India, Washington, December 19, 2013):

    Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade, arrested last week in New York on charges of visa fraud, was not subject to cavity search, as being alleged, the US Marshals Services claimed today.

    "In reference to your question about the cavity search, the answer is no," Nikki Credic-Barrett, spokesperson of the US Marshals Service, told PTI in response to a question on the allegations by the family of the senior Indian diplomat that she was subject to cavity search.

    "Devyani Khobragade was transferred to the US Marshals at approximately noon, December 12, pending her initial appearance before a United States federal magistrate judge," the spokesperson said.

    "After her appearance, she was released at approximately 4 p.M. The same day. Khobragade was subject to the same search procedures as other arrestees held within the general prisoner population in the Southern District of New York, which in this case was a strip-search," Credic-Barrett said.

    "In reference to the DNA swab, the responsibility for collection of a DNA sample was that of the arresting agency, US Department of State, Bureau of Diplomatic Security," she said when asked about the allegations of DNA swab.
    The applicable USMS Directive is here; and the point of controversy will be this:

    3. Strip Search: A complete search of a prisoner's attire and a visual inspection of the prisoner's naked body, including body cavities. The following procedures are applicable to a strip search:

    a. Strip searches on prisoners in custody are authorized when there is reasonable suspicion that the prisoner may be (a) carrying contraband and/or weapons, or (b) considered to be a security, escape, and/or suicide risk. Reasonable suspicion may be based upon, but is not limited to, one or more of the following criteria:

    1) Serious nature of the offense(s) charged, i.e., whether crime of violence or drugs;

    2) Prisoner's appearance or demeanor;

    3) Circumstances surrounding the prisoner's arrest or detention; i.e., whether the prisoner has been convicted or is a pretrial detainee;

    4) Prisoner's criminal history;

    5) Type and security level of institution in which the prisoner is detained; or

    6) History of discovery of contraband and/or weapons, either on the prisoner individually or in the institution in which prisoners are detained.
    I expect the USMS will defend its officers' decision on the basis of 5 & 6.

    Please note that this is a "false statement" case - a Martha Stewart redux; and technically the legality of the search does not bear on that charge.

    And, a "whoa Silver" on those talking about generic "US police". This case was brought by the US Department of State - and the arrest and initial custody (until noon) was by DoS Diplomatic Security officers. I expect that we'll also find out that some diplomatic "back channeling" went on before the arrest.

    Regards

    Mike
    Last edited by jmm99; 12-20-2013 at 12:28 AM.

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    India-US diplomat row: The Devyani Khobragade case looks all maid up

    Why did the US grant visas to Sangeeta Richard's family and fly them out to the US two days before Devyani was arrested?

    http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report...aid-up-1937478

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Why did the US grant visas to Sangeeta Richard's family and fly them out to the US two days before Devyani was arrested?
    About that question, Preet Bharara had this to say:

    "Fifth, as has been reported, the victim's family has been brought to the United States. As also has been reported, legal process was started in India against the victim, attempting to silence her, and attempts were made to compel her to return to India. Further, the Victim's family reportedly was confronted in numerous ways regarding this case. Speculation about why the family was brought here has been rampant and incorrect. Some focus should perhaps be put on why it was necessary to evacuate the family and what actions were taken in India vis-a-vis them. This Office and the Justice Department are compelled to make sure that victims, witnesses and their families are safe and secure while cases are pending."

    It appears you don't want to mess with Mr. Bharara.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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