FM 3-27.75 The Warrior Ethos and Soldier Combat Skills

[120mm]

So cut the Courtney Massengales of the world some slack. Sure, its a little corny, and we don't really want to produce ravening Huns, and true warriors make crappy soldiers, by and large. But I for one am glad to see the institutional army turning (even if only tentatively) toward reinstilling the idea that being a soldier means something more than learning a trade and big bonuses

I'm glad the Army is making the effort. I work at a CTC, and I can tell you that everyone I know is making leaps and bounds toward at least making an effort to change how we do things. But the non-combat arms types are waaaay behind the curve, when it gets down to rationalizing processes in what they do. When I talk to a combat arms-type, I get specifics and metrics. When I talk to a CSS type, I get Jedi-hand waves, generalizations and waffling.

Just to redirect, I don't think we, as an Army should put any effort at all into producing "ravening huns". What we should be focusing on, is getting rid of "sloppy" and producing "conscientious." And instilling a "Warrior Ethos" actually is going in the wrong direction!!!

BTW, Eden, that was a brilliant post. It's not often I get a belly-laugh like that from an actual informative-type post.

[Germ]

I'm glad the Army is making the effort. I work at a CTC, and I can tell you that everyone I know is making leaps and bounds toward at least making an effort to change how we do things. But the non-combat arms types are waaaay behind the curve, when it gets down to rationalizing processes in what they do. When I talk to a combat arms-type, I get specifics and metrics. When I talk to a CSS type, I get Jedi-hand waves, generalizations and waffling.
.

I'm with the many above in applauding Eden's post. I heard General Shinseki speak several years ago. He commented that he loved being Chief of Staff but would rather be Commandant of the Marine Corps. He further explained that he envied the Commandant, who did not have to contend with several corps, each with its own subculture and rice bowl. He found it exceedingly difficult to steer the institution known as the Army, where his counterpart in the Corps had no such trouble.

The crux of the problem lies in part in 120mm's observation above, but also in the very fact that soldiers look over a corps fence at each other in the first place. That identity piece, the wholeness of the army as a single culture, that is one heck of a difficult thing to wrestle.

Given the many influences towards different points of view in the army's diverse corps and MOSs, how does the Army best maintain and strengthen what it has of a single culture?

[Norfolk]

Unless, just as the USMC does, every Army in the English-speaking world compells all recruits and officer cadets to endure and pass Infantry training immediately after basic training (and holding them to solid standards all the while), then a "Warrior Ethos" drive will only last for a few or several years before it peters out and fades away - and leaving little real significant change in its wake. In the early 1990's, after PC considerations compelled the Canadian Army to ditch standards in the Infantry such as the 2x10 (two ten-mile approach marches on back-to-back days, each performed with full kit within two hours) and achieving a Marksman's rating, "Warrior Training", alleging derived from the Marine example, was instituted, and on Unit training time.

Basically, it tried to bring all the non-Infantry and especially non-CA types up to roughly the same standards as what were officially now set for the Infantry, such as an 8 mile march with full kit within 2 hours, 26 minutes, and adding to that a 2-mile "forced" march within 22 minutes with boots, helmet, webbing and rifle, followed by a 100 m casualty carry. Other former standards, such as Marksman for the Infantry, had been replaced by substantially lower common standards for all, and with most infantry light weapons - rifle (carbine for some Armour), LMG, GPMG in the Light Role, 60 mm mortar in the hand-held role, LAW, Carl G, Claymore, Elsie landmine (now banned of course), etc., and some basic fieldcraft tests. The standards were so mediocre that "Warrior Training" was given up, and the old 10 week Recruit course followed by Basic Trade Training (the Infantry Course, for example, was 17 weeks extra) was given up. Now, the Recruit course is 13 weeks, and everyone has to attend the 10-week Soldier course immediately afterwards, where some basic infantry skills are actually taught to all arms, for a total of 23 weeks of initial entry training. Not great, but better than "Warrior Training". Infantry attend an additrional 10 weeks of basic infantry training, for a total of 33 weeks intial entry training (a little overdone when we used to get it done in 27 weeks to rather higher standards years ago).

"Warrior Ethos", as others have explained rather better, is at least a recognition that there is a significant problem amongst non-CA types with regards to their fighting abilities. But as the Marines' example best demonstrates, unless you go whole hog and put all recruits and officer candidates through full-fledged infantry training prior to sending them on to their basic trade/MOS speciality training, that common core of both identity and basic fighting skills will be wanting. An identity and an ethos of everyone being a Rifleman - however much that varies in reality), has served the USMC well. Armies might do well to follow the Marine example, and having passed a solid Infantry syllabus gives a soldier a sense of common identity with others who have passed the same ordeal, and a sense of self-confidence to go with it, that forms the basis of a true and enduring Soldier Ethos.

Eden: The U.S. Army has done the Canadian Army a good turn or two by allowing one of our Generals to hold one of the two DCG slots at III Corps; any chance you could take DCO slot in a Canadian Brigade or at least a Battalion Command?

[JHR]

Properly done, the USMC is not just right of passage but also resocialization, at least for most. Count the bumper stickers and window decals for further proof.

JHR

[marct]

Hi JHR,

Properly done, the USMC is not just right of passage but also resocialization, at least for most. Count the bumper stickers and window decals for further proof.

Tom and I were using Anthropology short hand - "rights of passage" are "resocialization", in the Anthro model, as well as a complete psychological reconfiguration . It's actually a very well thought out and tested model that, unfortunately, has entered into general use without all of the details .

Marc

[Eden]

Quote Originally posted by Norfolk

Eden: The U.S. Army has done the Canadian Army a good turn or two by allowing one of our Generals to hold one of the two DCG slots at III Corps; any chance you could take DCO slot in a Canadian Brigade or at least a Battalion Command?

Sorry, I turned in my uniform about six months ago. Though I am a Canadian-American! My mother was Canadian and one paternal grandfather also. We dress the kids up in national costume (wooly cap with ear flaps, plaid felt shirts, snow pants with braces) every Victoria Day, but they have largely rejected their ethnic heritage.

One anal retentive note. Um...I'm not a professional anthropologist, but aren't they 'rites' of passage?

Norfolk: I had the privelege of working with some Canadian officers during the 2006 battles around Kandahar, which for short bursts were high intensity by any measure. How has the Canadian Army evaluated its 'warriorhood' in light of that performance?

[Norfolk]

Hi Eden,

Well, I too am out of uniform, and have been for a very long time now. But from what I gather, the main lessons learned were to bring back MBTs and tracked APCs, supported by organic Artillery, operating as a Combined-Arms Battle Group. LAVs out, heavy armour back in; but UAVs and helicopter lift were identified also as being desperately needed - they're going to lease UAVs, from the Germans apparently, and they're hoping to piggy-back their helo requirements on the backs of the MEU that's arriving, as their own won't arrive for a couple more years.

In short, it all seems to be about heavier equipment and a return to full-fledged Combined-Arms ops. Second Panjwai, where the LAVs got stuck when a Rifle Company of 1RCR was lured into and ambushed in a village, was the tipping point, when it became clear that the SBCT-style configuration wasn't going to cut it in a stand-up toe-to-toe more or less conventional pitched battle. I don't think that there has been a dramatic change in the training syllabus; I think that preceded OP MEDUSA by a couple years. But Battle Innoculation was reintroduced for Afghanistan in just the past few years; can't say whether it preceded or resulted from the events of Second Panjwai.

[raymondh3201]

I'm with the many above in applauding Eden's post. I heard General Shinseki speak several years ago. He commented that he loved being Chief of Staff but would rather be Commandant of the Marine Corps. He further explained that he envied the Commandant, who did not have to contend with several corps, each with its own subculture and rice bowl. He found it exceedingly difficult to steer the institution known as the Army, where his counterpart in the Corps had no such trouble.

The crux of the problem lies in part in 120mm's observation above, but also in the very fact that soldiers look over a corps fence at each other in the first place. That identity piece, the wholeness of the army as a single culture, that is one heck of a difficult thing to wrestle.

Given the many influences towards different points of view in the army's diverse corps and MOSs, how does the Army best maintain and strengthen what it has of a single culture?

I heard General Shinseki speak several years ago.

I could care less about this boob. This thread is on the improper use of the word "warrior" yet this man tries to instill esprit de corp by issuing "new" head gear to the Army, The Black Beret which also use to stand for something. The Marines would not have such.

The other problem is the Political Correctness that has gripped this country. God help us.