Do we require a victory or a Triumph?

[wm]

How about Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld in chariots with Wagner's Ride of the Valkyres blaring full tilt?

The camera pans to them thundering down a runway in golden chariots at Baghdad International and throngs of Iraqis are prostrating on the sides of the runways and maidens are throwing flowers onto the runway??

I find that image compelling, but with that foursome, I think that a better scene would be something out of the War Room in "Doctor Strangelove." I'm thinking of something along the lines of the fight scene with the Russian ambassador.

[Tom Odom]

I find that image compelling, but with that foursome, I think that a better scene would be something out of the War Room in "Doctor Strangelove." I'm thinking of something along the lines of the fight scene with the Russian ambassador.

never forget Slim Pickens as Maj. T.J. "King" Kong ridin the bomb in!

Stay on the bomb run, boys. I'm gonna get them doors open if it hare lips everybody on Bear Creek.

Shock and Aw Circa 1964! YAAAAAAAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

[slapout9]

Tom, thats right and he was from Alabama!

[Steve Blair]

Tom, thats right and he was from Alabama!

Like the new avatar, slapout!

[slapout9]

Like the new avatar, slapout!

Steve, thanks...took me forever to find that one and figure which keys to push to make it work. My keyboard has all these extra keys on it does your?

[goesh]

- now if I could just get my hillbilly woman with her sawed off shotgun convereted into an avatar, I mean we haven't addressed the aesthetics of triumph so far....... triumph often aint pretty after all

[Steve Blair]

Steve, thanks...took me forever to find that one and figure which keys to push to make it work. My keyboard has all these extra keys on it does your?

Sometimes, yeah. Now maybe I'll have to find a Castillo or Captain Real Estate (Maynard) to go with Crockett...or Stan and Larry...

[slapout9]

Steve, I tried Capt. real estate......video.... but no stills.

goesh, I don't think you can shrink hillbilly women small enough to fit in that little box.

[Rob Thornton]

Hey Tequilla,

Are you saying that we need to fundamentally transform the conditions that lead to terrorism? Isn't this a tad utopian, maybe even a bit neoconnish? We're having more than enough problems just securing Baghdad.

What is the road to this Triumph, the proper course to overcome the root causes of hatred? Democracy? Capitalism? How are we going to bring it to MENA or Central Asia?

Yes. That is what I'm saying. Yes it is utopian if you believe it rectifies all human differences - but I think t only provides the opportunity to work differecnces through without competing with the clutter of isolating individuals and groups found in dictatorships (Saddam, Tito, Stalin, Kim, Fidel, Hugo). Although I don't think its Neo-Conservative. However, let me qualify it. This goes to goesh's and Steve's observation that this is about the pursuit of power by illegitimate means (at least I think so) - no matter if we are talking political, or criminal.

Until you address the root causes of why men like Bin Laden, and dictators are able to assume the role of leadership, you will not get rid of terrorism. It is a tactic to achieve political purpose through coercion by folks who cannot go state on state. It is also a way to recruit people who have a multitude of folks with grievances to pin the source of their troubles on something identifiable other then themselves and through such things as perversion of religion, to justify hate and violence. Once you go down the road of terrorism you find that you need money to pull it off since you are off the grid - you work hand in hand with drug traffickers, slavers, money launderers etc - you justify your actions to the world by saying the political/ religious values you are killing people for has forced you into acting contrary to them - but only until you get your way, then the world will right, and you can wipe out all those folks you were sleeping with during your rise to the top.

While I believe you have to kill men like Bin Laden (some people just need to be killed - they are just that bad), I also believe you can't win this fight by just killing everybody who puts in an IED - unless you are willing to start killing anybody who might (or might be) put in an IED. I've seen that approach and the effects of it. You have to ask why these folks are willing to risk everything (death) in order to do it & you have to address that problem. There is no mono-causal explanation for terrorism - but there are some candidates that are stronger then others. I think terrorism is a problem, but it is also a symptom of a larger problem. No, we can't do it alone - we can't force a solution, but we can be a part of it - but not until we understand the problem and apply our resources in that direction. This is far bigger then Iraq, with globalization will only get worse as some people will find more reasons to turn to terrorism or to follow those who do in order to have some value. I'm not a sociologist, but I've been around enough people and enough places to form an opinion.

I think the answer does lie in some form of government that offers individuals hope & opportunity. The world has changed - the tools of terror are cheap and available to most in the world - cell phones, some chemicals for explosives and pissed off people. The tools were not as available 50 or even 20 years ago, the means for people to communicate and coordinate are growing, they allow people to find out who has what and who does not. They also allow for allot of good and neutral things, but if they live in a government that cannot or will not keep up then they seek redress. After awhile some get more frustrated and get violent. Violence has quality that either causes society to react to contain and punish it (if they can), or causes society to endorse it - remember the LA Riots - it just runs away - a force of nature - like in Baghdad. So yea, I think capitalism in today's Information powered world can offer a person to have hope and be content - to find value in their life that is too important to risk by participation towards, apathy towards terrorism, to produce and consume and participate. I also think some form of democracy is good - yes it must match the cultural environment to those that are governed - but fundamentally it provides a "voice" to the individual. All the various democratic states (and even organizations) do that. I don't know of one dictatorship that empowers any individual other then the dictator. Even China is trying to adopt its form of government to recognize the role the individual plays in progress while preserving those things that make it Chinese.

Extending Democracy as a key part of U.S. Policy has been along allot longer then the Neo-Cons. It makes you wonder why? What is attractive about a democracy? Why do so many want to come to the U.S.? Why is freedom and the chance to succeed so important to people around the world? Why do Cubans float on tire tubes and risk sharks and drowning? Why do Mexican immigrants risk death in a van crossing the desert? Why do so many Chinese risk being locked up in a container ship on a trans-Pacific voyage? Anyone else beside Johnny Depp immigrate from the U.S. to France? Anybody beating down the doors to move from L.A. or D.C. to say Kazakhstan - unless your a PMC getting paid?

Are we having trouble securing Baghdad - yep. How have we tried to do it? Where did we miss some opportunties and have to learn the hard way? I am not justifying regime change as a preferred way to achieve policy. I am saying that there are other ways to promote democratic values that we may not have tried yet, or are just beginning to understand the value of - through re-examining how we think about foreign policy and foreign relations - maybe Iraq was the catalyst, or maybe its the realization of how the world is shrinking and what that means. maybe there are other reasons why states should work together. Yep - little di - e and big M has caused us to consider all sorts of things such as short term success does not equal a long term solution. Consider how AFRICOM is being organized and why it is looking different then the other COCOMS?

So yes, I beleive the best expression of political freedom to be in some form of democracy - and I beleive free market capitalism to be one of the benefits of an open political systemthat offers the opportunity to succeed.

WM & Tom - I get you, but I had to use two words that were different enough and not played out (unless you were Roman). Triumph does not get much use, and signifies something larger then just victory - we've seen and heard victory so much on Fox & in the Post we associate with the status quo - we have watered it down.

Slapout - do you have an alligator on your boat?

[wm]

Sometimes, yeah. Now maybe I'll have to find a Castillo or Captain Real Estate (Maynard) to go with Crockett...or Stan and Larry...

It ain't Stan and Larry without their "bug mobile" Van.