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Thread: The John Boyd collection (merged thread)

  1. #81
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    I'll add this: I like to read Lind's essays; I don't always believe them but I like to read them.

    I don't think a lot about whether or not 4GW, MW, or the OODA loop are valid from a military perspective. I like to consider Lind's take on things because of his belief that the nation state is loosing the monopoly on war.

    When your enemy is a network, mafia, cartel, tribe, or clan instead of a state sponsored army it has serious law enforcement implications. When is something an act of war and when is something a crime? When is a war really a feud and vice versa?

    John Giduck writes in Terror at Beslan that in the coming years military and police forces will move toward each other; in that, the military will seem a little more like the police and the police will seem a little more like the military.

    Yeah, I know, this isn't new either: the Roman Army had constabulary forces and some American frontier era police forces, the Texas Rangers come to mind, were a paramilitary police force of sorts. So strictly speaking it may not be new but it is new to the mind of the average 21st Century American.

    And that's why I like to read Lind going on and on about the probability of fighting mostly non-nation state enemies in the coming years.
    Last edited by Rifleman; 12-22-2007 at 11:59 PM.
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    Granite and TT

    It was Balck who came over. Boyd and Lind spoke with him at length about a myriad of topics. I've read the actual transcript of a formal interview one of the DC based think tanks did with Balck, for the life of me I can't remember the title or who performed the interview.

    Also, when the A-10 was being designed, Sprey and Boyd talked with Hans Ulrich Rudel and received his input on what was needed for the optimal CAS aircraft. Rudel said, "A powerful cannon, an armored cockpit, and some kind of baffling to hide the heat signature of the engines to reduce the SAM threat."
    "Speak English! said the Eaglet. "I don't know the meaning of half those long words, and what's more, I don't believe you do either!"

    The Eaglet from Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland

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    Ski posted: It was Balck who came over.
    Thanks, Ski, for the clarification!

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=...fier=ADA301034

    I suppose most of you have seen this. It was news to me and I admit to be very strongly pre-disposed to its findings.

    if the link goes tech, just Google FMFM-1 Myths
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Whilst accepting the limitations of the medium of internet forums, I am surprised that none of the proponents of the argument against 4GW, MW, etc. have chosen to provide any detailed reasoning as to their objections to these theories of conflict; whilst those who have sought to defend them have provided detailed, reasoned and cogent explanations of both their positions and the context that led to their development.

    For example, Mr Owen stated, "..and for what it's worth, I thought MW was better than sex until I started reading and researching its origins in order to understand it better." Which begs the question as to what were the readings that caused him to question his new-found love and the insights that led him to eventually cast her aside with such derision.

    Later he states, "So here is something I don't understand. If MW was developed as a product of the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War contained a very high degree of insurgency, how come MW is utterly silent on COIN?" Whereas Boyd's presentation, Patterns of Conflict, deals with what Boyd terms 'Modern Guerilla Warfare' in some detail - slides 90-109 - with slide 108 in particular setting out very clearly the basic operational principles of a COIN strategy, and does so within the context of a counter-manoeuvre warfare Operational context, (Boyd uses the term counter-blitz). I particularly emphasise Boyd here as Mr Owen explicitly includes Boyd as a progenitor of 4GW, etc.

    In February Zenpundit has proposed an online symposium on Frans Osinga's Science, Strategy & War, which is a detailed study of Boyd's principles, i.e. the "On War" that Boyd never wrote. Perhaps the proponents of Clauzewitzian/Trinitarian warfare should get a copy of Col Osinga's book from the library and join the symposium; an informed contradictory opponent can be a useful resource. In any event a more detailed statement of the proposers objections to MW theory would assist in raising the intellectual level of this debate, and increase the opportunity for us all to develop insights into the strengths and weaknesses of our respective positions.

    I couldn't find a smiley which adequately reflects my genuine desire to promote an informed debate upon an important subject, without any intention to cause offence to any of the parties involved, so perhaps I'll instead quote Gregory Clark, who said, "Doubtless some of the arguments developed here will prove over-simplified, or merely false. They are certainly controversial, even amongst my colleagues ... But far better such error than the usual dreary academic sins, which now seem to define so much writing in the humanities, of wilful obfuscation and jargon-laden vacuity." Or as Darwin said, "false views, if supported by some evidence, do little harm, for everyone takes a salutary pleasure in proving their falseness: and when this is done, one path towards error is closed and the road to truth is often at the same time opened." (Both quotes taken from the preface to Clark's 'A Farewell To Alms.')

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Perhaps the problems are that

    Quote Originally Posted by Jik K View Post
    Whilst accepting the limitations of the medium of internet forums, I am surprised that none of the proponents of the argument against 4GW, MW, etc. have chosen to provide any detailed reasoning as to their objections to these theories of conflict; whilst those who have sought to defend them have provided detailed, reasoned and cogent explanations of both their positions and the context that led to their development.
    War is not a theory based phenomenon and that few theorists seem to spend much time carrying spears while few spear carriers have much time for theory might have something to do with it...

    In any event a more detailed statement of the proposers objections to MW theory would assist in raising the intellectual level of this debate, and increase the opportunity for us all to develop insights into the strengths and weaknesses of our respective positions.[
    Nor is war an intellectual exercise. Regrettable but true. Reality is such a bore.

    ...But far better such error than the usual dreary academic sins, which now seem to define so much writing in the humanities, of wilful obfuscation and jargon-laden vacuity." ...
    Out of context but -- yes.

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    Clausewitz was a spearchucker from the age of 14, as was his mentor Scharnhorst, but they spent a great deal of time theorising upon war. So did Moltke the elder, Sun Tzu, Jomini, Napoleon, etc., etc.

    To say that war is not an intellectual past-time is complacency verging towards the lower end of ignorance - no insult intended, just an observation. War is first and foremost an intellectual enterprise, the ultimate Darwinian experiment; the stupid die quickly. Didn't a famous spearchucker once say that the moral is to the physical as three is to one, or something like that. Of course, he probably just sat around thinking about war rather than doing any (in fact that's just what he did for two years as a young officer before going on to conquer Europe.)

    This is precisely what I'm saying about the level of this debate. "it just is," isn't going to make me change my mind. Give me your reasons, illustrate my oversights, define the fallacies in my orientation that impact upon my decisions and actions. I'm all grown-up and I've chucked a few spears of my own and I don't have a problem with thinking about how to do it better next time.

    Jim Keenan

    "false views, if supported by some evidence, do little harm, for everyone takes a salutary pleasure in proving their falseness: and when this is done, one path towards error is closed and the road to truth is often at the same time opened." Charles Darwin.

  8. #88
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default So they did -- those you name here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jik K View Post
    Clausewitz was a spearchucker from the age of 14, as was his mentor Scharnhorst, but they spent a great deal of time theorising upon war. So did Moltke the elder, Sun Tzu, Jomini, Napoleon, etc., etc.
    As for those whose theories you choose to defend as an intellectual exercise???

    To say that war is not an intellectual past-time is complacency verging towards the lower end of ignorance - no insult intended, just an observation....
    None taken. To say that it is an intellectual pastime is foolishness bordering on the edge of delusion. No insult intended.

    I did not say that one should not consider ways and means; one obviously should and most of us do. I do contend that esoteric argument and defense of a particular theory (or bunch of theorists) is intellectual hubris and potentially dangerous. There is no perfect war and there is no perfect method. Those that find the Holy Grail are, in my experience quite likely to get tunnel vision and find themselves deprived of flexibility of thought.

    War is first and foremost an intellectual enterprise, the ultimate Darwinian experiment; the stupid die quickly...
    Stupidity is indeed a killer in war, couldn't agree more with that statement.

    We can disagree about it being the ultimate Darwinian experiment -- and about it being the ultimate intellectual exercise. I would agree that it is the ultimate test of the merging of intuition and thought with great speed, not the same thing at all as an intellectual exercise of specious debate on an academic level.

    ... Didn't a famous spearchucker once say that the moral is to the physical as three is to one, or something like that. Of course, he probably just sat around thinking about war rather than doing any (in fact that's just what he did for two years as a young officer before going on to conquer Europe.)
    Yes, he did. Though I'd submit he wasn't a spearchucker but rather an Artillerist -- those folks are always enamored of undue cereberal effort -- and frequently, in my observation, an enhanced view of their capabilities.

    ...This is precisely what I'm saying about the level of this debate. "it just is," isn't going to make me change my mind...
    Cannot speak for others but I have absolutely no intention of trying to change your mind; I found out long ago that arguing with true believers is fruitless. You are, after all every bit as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I've no intention of debating the 'merits' of 5GW, MW or any other such concepts. I'll study them, adopt what works but am not interested in mantras -- or esoteric debate. I do enjoy throwing darts at balloons, though.

    Give me your reasons, illustrate my oversights, define the fallacies in my orientation that impact upon my decisions and actions...
    Since I have no idea at all what decisions and actions you've taken, that would be exceedingly difficult. Thus I cannot illustrate your oversights. I can say that in my opinion, the fallacy in your orientation appears to be, in my view (Yes, that's redundant, for emphasis), adherence to a particular theory to the exclusion of other theories and an attempt to denigrate those who do not agree as non-believers and ignorant.

    I'm all grown-up and I've chucked a few spears of my own...
    Good for you. They hit anything? I've been fortunate enough to use Springfield Armory products -- the original, not the new company of that name and Winchester as well as Colt products without having to rely on older tools. Though I did use my Ka Bar a couple of times. Not a bayonet; silly weapon.

    ...and I don't have a problem with thinking about how to do it better next time.
    Nor do I, spend a fair amount of time on that. Avoiding lockstep and being excessively doctrinaire in the process, I hope...
    Last edited by Ken White; 01-06-2008 at 08:45 PM.

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    Default I'll give you a reason why 4GW is harmful

    Here is my take on the worst of 4GW: It reinforces the commonly held belief that history is uniform and linear. First this, then that, now we're here and proceeding on to over there. It's that Hegelian/Marxist hangover causing the consternation. I've just read the first couple of chapters of Hammes' book recently and I keep waiting for him to qualify things more tightly and he has not so far....does he in the end? Timelines don't determine the nature of things, the culture does. I mean one nation state may be fighting a 3GW while a Al Q may be fighting a 4GW and other nations are doing 6GW--whatever that might be... Eurostyle Nye soft power or something? Why is this a problem? In his effort to keep it simple he's misleading. Simple is not harmful, but misleading is. The above posts insisting that it is only in modern warfare seems to have missed my attempt to find that in Hammes' Sling and the Stone.

    In order to clarify it more correctly perhaps we should talk more about why an entity like a state or a group, fight the way they do. I think Van Creveld did this to a degree and I would recommend John Linn's book Battle for a good attempt at describing how various cultures manifest their style of warfare. Either Linn or Herodotus! Linn is not hung up on a progressive timeline, but rather discusses the nature of a culture. Interesting similarities appear then, across cultures, not governed by the date but rather more determined by their cultural aspects. He explicitly takes on Victor Davis Hanson.

    Once a reader is out of the linear mode, one begins to see that cultures have their own characteristics and that will determine how they will conduct war. Then, with that in mind political leaders and senior military planners begin with examining cultural manifestations in order to understand their adversary's "Clausewitzian Trinity." In other words, for starters....what is the war worth to them and at what point might they consider negotiating or capitulating (depending upon what you seek to achieve). At that point we could get away from technology or Slings and Stones and begin to understand the nature of the war - not the weaponry.

    The world does not march in lock step along generational or linear paths. Its messy and I think they gave up clarity in their narrative when some of the 4GW apostles attempt their misleading simplicity.

    By the by, I would commend the original Boyd to people. Even HIS OODA loop, not the way its taught in the war college stuff I took, but his discussions hold up well I believe. I did not know about some of his students coming in after him and appending things though...

    This is an interesting thread. Very illuminating to this AF guy who believed thinking Marines began and ended with Ellis!

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    Ken, thank you for accepting my post in the spirit in which it was intended. I agree with much of what you say and am a true-beleiver only to the extent that I have found the framework to be of utility in planning and decision-making under stress. However, part of the theory is to retain open loops, i.e. reality check your understanding of what is happening in the world, and as such having your views challenged by an informed practitioner is of inestimable value. To paraphrase Bismark it is much more intelligent to learn from the experience of others than to learn from your own mistakes.

    That's why I was hoping for more detailed criticism of MW, etc. from this thread; as a reality check. The only disputation seems to be coming from the MW side. I don't know Mr Owen, but from what background checking I have been able to do I believe that he may be a person whose insights would be useful in this regard. You also seem to be a person of integrity and experience, and I would welcome the opportunity to consider any concerns with regard to these issues that you, or any other like-minded member would like to share with the forum. Not merely as an intellectual conceit, but so that I can learn any potential lessons that are available before I use what I think I know to put those under my authority in harms way.

    Jim
    Jim Keenan

    "false views, if supported by some evidence, do little harm, for everyone takes a salutary pleasure in proving their falseness: and when this is done, one path towards error is closed and the road to truth is often at the same time opened." Charles Darwin.

  11. #91
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Given a serious approach and my favorite

    Bismark quote I'll acknowledge having followed and read Boyd plus Lind, Record and many other current theorists many years ago. I also read most of those you named above even more years ago and have read Hammes and a few others lately -- not including Robb -- and I've learned something from every one of them. Still check 'em out today from time to time. I have no pride, I'll steal a good idea in a second. Keeping people alive and minimally hassled while getting jobs done is what it's all about and anything that aids in that is fair game for theft...

    I have also seen ideas from each of them that I have discarded; some due to many factors being not currently applicable, others being in the "only if you're really lucky" category. Such selective retention or discard is, of course, based on my experience. Some of that is relevant today, some may not be though I take pains to try and stay abreast (not least because I have a erving son whose favorite pastime seems to be taxing the old man's brain. Sigh).

    The issue there is what one adopts from the theorists is likely to depend on ones predilections, instincts (which should be trusted) and experience. Nothing wrong with that.

    In 45 years of training or helping people train to go to war, I discovered three basic truths. First, we're all different and what works for me may not work for you and vice versa, thus I've long been a proponent of teaching people how to think and not what to think (using that phrase decades before it became popular) and encouraging irreverence, imagination, innovation and initiative (my four "I"s, the irreverence is aimed at "fonts of all knowledge" and 'one way' or school solution proponents).

    Secondly, learn the doctrine thoroughly and study prodigously but always remember what Bull Halsey said -- "Regulations were meant to be intelligently disregarded" and that applies to doctrine and theory as well (and that is my only mantra ). Lastly, I trained or helped others train for most of 45 years to fight a land war in Europe -- never even got stationed much less fought there-- but I sure have eaten a whole lot of rice. The point there being we do not know where, when or who we will fight -- why is immaterial, how will change...

    Then there are three tactical absolutes I learned the hard way. (1) Do not try to adopt the thinking of others, they or their chroniclers will leave something out when they tell you why they did what they did. (2) Do not ever, ever, ever do the same thing twice. Never. Under any circumstances. Never ever. (3) Stay alert to stay alive, stay agile to stay ahead.

    Since Wilf Owen posted the thread originally, he may come back and give you more than a one liner. He's a busy guy and many of his posts are, uh, somewhat cryptic. I OTOH, can babble for hours

    Long way of saying there are aspects of MW that I agree with, there are aspects I take with a grain of salt -- and with knowledge that the US Armed Forces are now (in not all but too many cases) risk averse and (same caveat) excessively over centralized. Too much so to effectively implement the precepts, plus the ISR improvements we actually now possess have made some elements of MW unnecessary and firepower has a place. We can be lot more surgical than MW envisioned...

    Boyd's theories are broadly applicable but ability to get inside the OODA loop of the bad guys in tactical, operational or strategic environments is constrained by who the decision maker for a specific action decision happens to be; intuitive guys will do it, the more mechanical will likely be unable to do so and continued attempts by those who aren't quick enough will probably lead to failure. Combat Commanders have to do what works for them, not what worked for John Boyd.

    As for the generations of warfare; total academic exercise IMO and I put little stock in any of that. We fight the fight we're sent to. Jayhawker above is spot on with the culture bit and any one from any culture who goes to war (in any sense) is going to seek an 'asymmetric' approach and use the best weapons (in the very broad sense of that word and to include in IO) they can obtain while fighting basically as their culture has provided examples. Both Afghanistan and the ME have proven this in spades. Terror is terror, quick strikes are quick strikes, an assassin is an assassin -- dagger to suicide bombs not withstanding...

    Our problem is that we're so bureaucratic that we cannot get inside their OODA loop. We may change and be able to go asymmetric as well, I do believe we're trying in spite of some Mastodons...
    Last edited by Ken White; 01-06-2008 at 11:34 PM. Reason: Typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jik K View Post
    .
    For example, Mr Owen stated, "..and for what it's worth, I thought MW was better than sex until I started reading and researching its origins in order to understand it better." Which begs the question as to what were the readings that caused him to question his new-found love and the insights that led him to eventually cast her aside with such derision.
    The readings were, principally, Carl Von C, Robert Leonhards, "Principles of War for the information age," and Richard Simpkin's "Race to the Swift."

    ...but the real rot set in when I started to look at EBO and 4GW. - and last of all, i sat down and finally read "Manoeuvre Warfare handbook" and FMFM1.

    That was it. "Here's your knickers, love, and there's a couple of dollars for breakfast and a taxi"
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post

    Since Wilf Owen posted the thread originally, he may come back and give you more than a one liner. He's a busy guy and many of his posts are, uh, somewhat cryptic. I OTOH, can babble for hours
    As a great military thinker once said, "A hamster can never defeat a bear, but many hamsters will make a good meal."

    Cryptic enough?
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Nah, that's not cryptic, that's a full explanation...

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    As a great military thinker once said, "A hamster can never defeat a bear, but many hamsters will make a good meal."

    Cryptic enough?
    Aside from the fact that too many Hamsters are guaranteed to produce a major case of indigestion...

    Of, course there is the issue that the same great military thinker also posed a question about the Bear who may or may not have had that particular problem...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Aside from the fact that too many Hamsters are guaranteed to produce a major case of indigestion...
    Not to mention hairballs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norfolk View Post
    Not to mention hairballs.
    depends on whether you did them in NAIR before frying

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    Jayhawker said:

    Here is my take on the worst of 4GW: It reinforces the commonly held belief that history is uniform and linear.
    Yes, the generations framework they use does indeed do this. As a simplification, the generations of warfare does make clear that the character of warfare does change, and has changed (I use it teaching my MA students for this reason), but it does grossly obscure the chaotic (ie non-linear), complex processes through change occurs. And of course, change need not be, and often is not, progressive......

    And this is true of any theory, particularly in the social sciences (and warfare, and war more general, is not a science). ‘Theory’, very simply speaking, is designed to highlight certain ‘relevant aspects’ and so aims to simplify. Which means no one theory ever explains everything (in spite of what the theorists may say). Heck, biologists, palaeontologists, and so on and so forth, have been refining Darwin’s concept of evolution virtually from the time he published Origins of the Species, and are working at refining it (and those that advocate intelligent design completely repudiate it).

    Ken, to my mind, has it right when he says:

    and I've learned something from every one of them
    Wisdom of the ages! And no, Ken, this is not a comment on your age (well, not much of one – I read an article recently arguing that there is a ‘correlation’ between age and wisdom, so you must be very wise ).

    There are four or five or six or seven or however many different theories, or approaches, or views, out there today putting forth an argument of one sort or another about what the future of warfare will be like. I seriously doubt whether any one of them has it exactly right (and this includes 4GW). Or maybe, even probably, whether any one of them has it anywhere near right except maybe in general, broad terms. I am in my normal state of being dazed and confused tonight but I think I am right that it was Michael Howard who observed that any view of future warfare will always be wrong in one or more respects or another, but the key is not to be completely wrong (no, not a quote).


    Wilf said:
    As a great military thinker once said, "A hamster can never defeat a bear, but many hamsters will make a good meal."
    Cryptic enough?
    Very cryptic. I was not aware that wild bears eat hamsters. At least not where I come from. Groundhogs, whistlers, old and young elk, ants, shoots, berries, the occasional human, and so on and so forth -- but not hamsters.

    But quibbling aside, this depends, does it not? The hamster, from its perspective, wins if it is not eaten by the bear, whereas from the bear’s perspective, he loses (ie goes hungry) if it does not catch the hamster. If hamsters cause the bear hairballs, and indigestion, is the discomfort worth the effort? Is the energy expended by the bear in catching one tiny hamster worth the energy gain of eating it? And further, if we adopt Dawkin’s ‘selfish gene’ perspective, as long as hamsters as a species exist and flourish, it does not matter how many a bear, or many bears, eat? These are interesting political questions. .

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    A couple of comments on zenpundit's latest blog entry on the subject of this thread - "A War of Words About 4GW":

    Admittedly, I am an admirer of GEN William E. DePuy, and he did have a fair bit of battle experience himself. But I think he put it quite well with regards to questions of "attrition" or "manoeuvre" approaches to warfare:

    Partly because maneuver doctrine is so inherently attractive to soldiers, it has generated its own excesses. In arguing its undoubted merits, proponents have apparently felt it necessary to contrast those virtues with the vices of alternative doctrine. The chief contrast has been drawn with the so-called tactics of attrition.

    Attrition is such an "ugly" doctrine that it claims no known or announced adherents, even though most wars finally have been resolved on that basis. Certainly it is permissible to be against attrition so long as the critic does not spread his anathema over the whole idea of fighting; not only fighting, but hard, bloody fighting, should that be necessary.


    Victory in such combat has classically gone to the commander who concentrates (and applies) superior combat power at the point and time of decision. We know, but sometimes forget, that there are two dimensions to concentration and two methods involved:

    * Concentration of forces in space via maneuver.
    * Concentration of actions in time via synchronization.

    This article's premise is that proper doctrine must seek both goals and employ both methods in ajudicious mix and that synchronization embraces a widening range of complex but essential functions.

    Lest this issue seem overdrawn, there are a number of very bright and influential young field grade officers who have contributed much to maneuver doctrine, who by their talent will remain influential in doctrinal matters throughout their careers and who are genuinely worried about what they perceive as a mutually exclusive relationship between maneuver and synchronization. The argument goes that synchronization smacks of set-piece warfare-a Montgomery perhaps, compared with a Rommel or a Patton. And if synchronization, therefore, means stopping the war for time-consuming, deliberate arrangements for every battle, then it will nullify the enormous benefits that otherwise would flow from rapid and bold maneuver.

    This is not a trivial issue. Perhaps the logic trap is in moving the discussion to the outer boundaries of each concept. One could visualize an army strangled and immobilized by its internal procedures for synchronization, every battle a Normandy landing or an El Alamein. Correspondingly, an army devoted to an endless bloodless ballet does not inspire much
    confidence.

    But extremes prove very little. Common sense tells us to move toward the center, to synthesize the virtues of each in a higher order of competence and professionalism-an Hegelian dialectic if you will. The remainder of this article, therefore, centers on synchronization with the goal of bringing that process up to a level of equal prominence with maneuver in doctrinal thinking throughout the Army.

    This is not an argument against maneuver doctrine. It accepts the primacy of maneuver as all supporting actions must be keyed to maneuver. The scheme of maneuver (concept of operation) is the first and great requirement. The second, which is like unto it, is synchronization.

    The history of war is replete with examples in which superior forces were concentrated for battles which were then lost to smaller but better-handled opponents.

    Gen. Sir Bernard L. Montgomery's predecessors in North Africa, with the notable exception of the unsung Gen. Sir Richard N. O'Connor, regularly assembled forces larger and potentially stronger than the Germans, and just as regularly were defeated. At Gazala, Field Marshal Erwin Rommel maneuvered himself into the rear of the British and into what the Germans themselves described as the witches cauldron. With the British commander, Gen. Sir Neil M. Ritchie in the rear, the Eighth Army never made a concerted and decisive move against the trapped Panzer Army. Individual British (Indian and New Zealand) brigades engaged the Germans as the spirit seized their various commanders or as they were forced to fight for survival. But Gen. Ritchie probably never generated, at any one time, more than ten to 20 percent of his army's latent power.

    Gen. Rommel, on the other hand, was actively present in the "cauldron" with his troops. He, personally, brought up his supply and ammunition trains, had a path cut back through the British mine field as a direct resupply route, issued orders to his force, routed the Eighth Army and went on to the Egyptian border-capturing Tobruk on the way. He synchronized the actions of his smaller force and developed more intensive combat power at the critical time.

    It is interesting to note that the deep enveloping maneuver of the Germans did not stampede the phlegmatic British. The mere presence of the whole Panzer Army in the British rear was not enough. Only when Gen. Rommel delivered a well-coordinated attack did the defense collapse. The psychological effects of maneuver can be overstated. British phlegm may have its counterpart in a Soviet command which is less than skittish.

    Finally, on this point, the French have a marvelously descriptive term for the tactics of a force so powerful and confident that it ignored the movements of the enemy and simply marched straight to its objective-"a maneuver of scorn."

    (From: "Towards a Balanced Doctrine" in Selected Papers of General William E. DePuy, Compiled by Richard M. Swain, pp.315-317.)


    It takes a great deal of time to marshall the resources required for attack compared to the time it may take to establish that for defence. Attack, by its very nature, normally requires a substantial degree of manoeuvre; defence, by comparison normally does not require the same degree of manoeuvre. And the resources required for Attack tend to considerably outweigh those required for Defence, and thus require much more time to assemble. In the meantime, the enemy must be held off, and this requires Defence even in the midst of preparing for Attack.

    Under the constrained conditions of war, Defence, and subsequently "Attrition", for lack of a more palatable term, is the norm; Attack, and subsequently "Maneouvre", is the intended decisive moment of action that the Defence has been building up to. Manoeuvre is necessary for victory, but it is not always necessarily available; "Attrition" is in effect a sort of typical condition, and not by any means necessarily as a result of Doctrine or inability or unwillingness to seek "Manoeuvre". This does not excuse those who eschew the opportunity to resort to "Manoeuvre" and instead resort to "Attrition". But when even the German Army, that model of MW that Lind holds up, spent most of its time in the later years of WWI and throughout most of WWII engaged in nothing less than "Attrition Warfare", and not by choice, then it is most important to bear in mind the practical limitations of Manoeuvre Warfare ("3GW") in particular, and 4GW Theory in general.

  19. #99
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TT View Post
    Y

    But quibbling aside, this depends, does it not? The hamster, from its perspective, wins if it is not eaten by the bear, whereas from the bear’s perspective, he loses (ie goes hungry) if it does not catch the hamster. If hamsters cause the bear hairballs, and indigestion, is the discomfort worth the effort? Is the energy expended by the bear in catching one tiny hamster worth the energy gain of eating it? And further, if we adopt Dawkin’s ‘selfish gene’ perspective, as long as hamsters as a species exist and flourish, it does not matter how many a bear, or many bears, eat? These are interesting political questions. .
    Oh but you don't Understand! As long as the hamsters seeks to shatter the bears situational awareness through a variety of rapid, focused, and unexpected actions, which create a turbulent and rapidly deteriorating situation with which the bear cannot cope, they can defeat the bear through an effects based approach!

    ...remember, 4th Generation Hamsters spend a lot time running on their OODA loops!
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  20. #100
    Council Member Ron Humphrey's Avatar
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    Question OK just trying to get this all in a way I can understand

    I'm trying to follow so heres the gist of what Ive gotten so far

    4GW - Plan is continually changing no matter what (EBO/OODA)

    WILF - Make a plan and stick with it until you find it to be unviable at which point youll know what to change it to because any reasonble person has been looking at options the whole.

    TT - Something about Bears and berries

    Norfolk - Those who look for a fight will find it and aren't necessarily the wiser for it
    (curtesy DePuy)

    Ken - Read, and listen to everything, it cost nothing and you might even learn something; otherwise if you have any questions ask me (probably been there done that.


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