Islam, Catholisism, religion, and conflict

[Bob's World]

I'm not arguing Carl, just stating the facts as I understand them.

J Singh mentions the enlightenment and reformation.

Better he backs it up a bit and considers the Renaissance in the 1300s-1600; Mr. Guttenburg's printing press in 1445, the Reformation in the 1500s; and then the Enlightenment in 1600s/1700s.

People of Western Europe long held under the ideological and political control of the Holy Roman Empire becoming informed and educated; the political hi-jacking of Martin Luther's religious counter to the Catholic Church by those who sought to overthrow the political control of the Roman Empire.

Those who wished to sustain the status quo remained Catholic; those who sought change became Protestants of that status quo.

Politics and power dressed up in the religious terms necessary to move people to violent and illegal action.

What we see in the Middle East is little different. The keepers of the status quo love to blame some other ideology or religion for the challenges they face. Far easier to swallow than the recognition that the governance they provide is so sorely out of touch.

[carl]

The keepers of the status quo love to blame some other ideology or religion for the challenges they face. Far easier to swallow than the recognition that the governance they provide is so sorely out of touch.

True in an absolute sense, that the governance they provide is out of touch. But that leads back to Bill M's point, which as I understand it is the takfiri killer's desired form of government is defined by religious belief; they are upset not because the govs there aren't enlightened, but because they don't conform to their idea of what religion dictates.

No matter how you slice it, religion looms very large as a motivator in and of itself.

[OUTLAW 09]

I'm not arguing Carl, just stating the facts as I understand them.

J Singh mentions the enlightenment and reformation.

Better he backs it up a bit and considers the Renaissance in the 1300s-1600; Mr. Guttenburg's printing press in 1445, the Reformation in the 1500s; and then the Enlightenment in 1600s/1700s.

People of Western Europe long held under the ideological and political control of the Holy Roman Empire becoming informed and educated; the political hi-jacking of Martin Luther's religious counter to the Catholic Church by those who sought to overthrow the political control of the Roman Empire.

Those who wished to sustain the status quo remained Catholic; those who sought change became Protestants of that status quo.

Politics and power dressed up in the religious terms necessary to move people to violent and illegal action.

What we see in the Middle East is little different. The keepers of the status quo love to blame some other ideology or religion for the challenges they face. Far easier to swallow than the recognition that the governance they provide is so sorely out of touch.

Here in Berlin is a native born Egyptian (Sunni) with a German passport who has been here over 19 years as a political scientist ---he has written in German a book titled "The Islamic Fascism" where he intensely looked at the Salafist and Takfiri Sunni wings and came to the conclusion that there is no difference between say the European fascism of the 30s/40s and yes even into the present and the current Salafist and Takfiri wings of Sunnism.

Needless to say he is under constant death threats out of that community and is under police protection.

The threats have increased to such a level he is now leaving Germany.

[slapout9]

Here in Berlin is a native born Egyptian (Sunni) with a German passport who has been here over 19 years as a political scientist ---he has written in German a book titled "The Islamic Fascism" where he intensely looked at the Salafist and Takfiri Sunni wings and came to the conclusion that there is no difference between say the European fascism of the 30s/40s and yes even into the present and the current Salafist and Takfiri wings of Sunnism.

Needless to say he is under constant death threats out of that community and is under police protection.

The threats have increased to such a level he is now leaving Germany.

Liddel Hart in his book "Strategy" talked about how this could happen with Islam at the end of WW2. Some far sighted people have seen this coming for some time.

[Bob's World]

Ok, for all of you who are convinced they fight because of their religious differences rather than in pursuit of power or to throw off a system of governance designed and implemented by one group to oppress the other, riddle me this:

Why is it that people of these same diverse religions live together in natural harmony when these inequities of illegitimacy, power and opportunity are resolved??

[slapout9]

As jcustis said there various sects now and during the Barbary wars. We found some good Muslims and with God and a few Marines we brought them to the curb and signed a treaty. The Navy helped to. Keep them in line forget about reforming them.

[J Singh]

Ok, for all of you who are convinced they fight because of their religious differences rather than in pursuit of power or to throw off a system of governance designed and implemented by one group to oppress the other, riddle me this:

Why is it that people of these same diverse religions live together in natural harmony when these inequities of illegitimacy, power and opportunity are resolved??

One would need an example of where that which is described in the question, actually exists, in order to consider a response to it.

[Bob's World]

Seriously?

How about Catholics and Protestants virtually every where?

[carl]

Seriously?

How about Catholics and Protestants virtually every where?

Virtually everywhere...?

RCs and the Prods settled that thing a long time ago and when they did, the settlement was largely preserved I think because of western cultural environment, which of course was influenced by the nature of the religion itself along with the Enlightenment and all that. Slaughtering Episcopalians just isn't done. Unless that Episcopalian wanders into Raqqa where he will have to flee, convert, dhimmi or die.

I'll riddle something back. Suppose IS achieves the supremacy they dream of and establish an unchallenged caliphate that runs from the Atlantic coast to Indian Ocean, north and south as far as your imagination lets them go; do you think they will allow freedom of worship? How long do you figure it will take?

[J Singh]

Seriously?

Yes, seriously.

Why is it that people of these same diverse religions live together in natural harmony when these inequities of illegitimacy, power and opportunity are resolved??

Diverse religions or sects of the same religion?
Natural harmony is a term begging for a propounded definition.
The emphasized text does not comport with any geopolitical region of which one is aware.

How about Catholics and Protestants virtually every where?

Both have been subsumed, generally, by Western secularism following a long and oft bloody struggle between the partisans (going back to the issue of the Western sociohistorical experience). Of course, "virtually everywhere" still has its flash points.

More than 700 mainly young Protestant men have been convicted of rioting in protests linked to parades and the union jack dispute in Belfast, it has emerged. The news came ahead of a potentially violent standoff involving Ulster loyalists and a banned Orange Order march in Belfast. As loyalists were preparing to light their bonfires on the eve of the 12 July – the climax of the marching season – Northern Ireland's justice minister, David Ford, told the Guardian that he was concerned that more and more young Protestants were joining the ranks of those already convicted of public order offences.

[J Singh]

J Singh mentions the enlightenment and reformation.

Better he backs it up a bit and considers the Renaissance in the 1300s-1600; Mr. Guttenburg's printing press in 1445, the Reformation in the 1500s; and then the Enlightenment in 1600s/1700s.

One could back it up a bit beyond that and extend it to the time of the development of Greek (inclusive of Athenian) democracy. The reason for choosing the Enlightenment (Wikipedia being non-citable for published work but sufficient herein) was the following:

"The Age of Enlightenment (or simply the Enlightenment or Age of Reason) was a cultural movement of intellectuals beginning in late 17th-century Europe emphasizing reason and individualism rather than tradition.[1] Its purpose was to reform society using reason, to challenge ideas grounded in tradition and faith, and to advance knowledge through the scientific method. It promoted scientific thought, skepticism, and intellectual interchange (emphasis mine)."

The Reformation was specifically included secondary to its predicative basis for the oft violent and bloody sectarian struggles that followed from it. One may back 'it' up to the extent that one chooses without altering the resultant conclusion.

People of Western Europe long held under the ideological and political control of the Holy Roman Empire becoming informed and educated; the political hi-jacking of Martin Luther's religious counter to the Catholic Church by those who sought to overthrow the political control of the Roman Empire.

Those who wished to sustain the status quo remained Catholic; those who sought change became Protestants of that status quo.

Politics and power dressed up in the religious terms necessary to move people to violent and illegal action.

However one frames it, the resultant is unchanged. The sociohistorical paradigm operative in the West has been, for some time, the triumph of secularism over religion. The interesting conundrum in regards to how the West arrived 'here' from 'there' is that it included the use of violence and acts deemed illegal by the old order. It is not surprising that the new order would deem 'illegal' the mechanism by which it came to power.

What we see in the Middle East is little different. The keepers of the status quo love to blame some other ideology or religion for the challenges they face. Far easier to swallow than the recognition that the governance they provide is so sorely out of touch.

The secular grievance model is nice but misses the boat on why 'they' fight. The latter requires an objective understanding of their worldview (sans the mirror image logical fallacy).