SMALL WARS COUNCIL
Go Back   Small Wars Council > Conflicts -- Current & Future > Other, By Region > Americas

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-15-2010   #21
Beelzebubalicious
Council Member
 
Beelzebubalicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: currently in Washington DC
Posts: 321
Default

There are a slew of orgs raising money to save lives, but who is trying to save their souls?

Last edited by Beelzebubalicious; 01-15-2010 at 05:41 PM. Reason: iPhone keeps correcting my spelling. Slew of kegs wasn't what I was going after
Beelzebubalicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010   #22
marct
Council Member
 
marct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3,682
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by graphei View Post
In terms of drumming up money from like-minded Christians, it didn't ring that way to my ears. It could be interpreted as a veiled threat. Why would a devout Christian send money to people who work for the Devil- disaster or otherwise? Pray for their souls- yep. Money and goods? I'll have to do some digging.
Could be. I'd love to see what actual percentage of any money raised actually gets to people who need it. Give the good doctors involvement, my money would lie on the "less than the bad old days at UNICEF" level (i.e. <12%). Then again, I really, REALLY, dislike the televangelist crowd !
__________________
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
marct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010   #23
Schmedlap
Council Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,444
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marct View Post
Then again, I really, REALLY, dislike the televangelist crowd !
You and most Christians, too.
Schmedlap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010   #24
Danny
Council Member
 
Danny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posts: 141
Default Strange discussion ...

For this discussion board, but I'll play along too since someone else started this.

As for dear Pat, he isn't senile and his views make perfect sense within the context of his overall theology and worldview. His theology embraces one of continuing revelation instead of a closed revelation, so in other words, through feelings, dreams, visions, unction or whatever, he can have a direct pipeline into the mind of God. Most Assembly of God, Pentecostal, Wesleyan and other so-called "holiness" churches are the same in their belief system.

I am a Christian and happen to vehemently disagree on not only theological but logical grounds (i.e., tests of consistency). It's a long story, could go into it much later via e-mail if anyone wishes. Long and short of it, the problem with Pat's view isn't that it is wrong, which it is. The problem is that it falls within the context of his world view, and that is the larger problem.

The rain falls on the just and the unjust. 'Nuff said on that.

As for the nature of religious belief, good grief! Really? For a discussion board? Really? Start with the study of epistemology, go to ontology and cosmology, and end with theology and soteriology and ethics.

I've had seminary training, but unless there are some Chaplains who frequent this board, I doubt many here have. This is a bridge too far for a discussion thread.

Just chuckle at Pat and wish the Marines well in Haiti. Pat no more knows that God caused this as a result of their wickedness than Danny Glover knows that it occurred as a result of global warming (and no, I'm an unbeliever in that).

Regards,

HPS
Danny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010   #25
slapout9
Council Member
 
slapout9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,810
Default Katrina-Haiti

Anderson Cooper of CNN just interviewed General Honere' (spellin) of Katrina fame and he was not to pleased with situation. Among his responses were... drop the rest of the 82nd tomorrow morning and get this problem fixed! Have the local population start clearing landing pads for helicopters so they can set up water and food distribution points. Don't be afraid of the people they just want help. Another reporter said people are dying because of stupidity wasn't exactly sure what he meant but it appears that the roads are passable and have a fair amount of traffic on them but nothing is being distributed or at least very little. Zenpundit has aksed the question will Haiti be President Obama's Katrina?We will see.
slapout9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010   #26
Steve the Planner
Council Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 827
Default Honore

Right. All the mumbo jumbo aside, this is a basic humanitarian crisis/disaster recovery operation, and the President will be measured by it, although, being a country far, far away, (read: Not America) he may get some latitude.

First underway, and foremost has been Honore, then DoD. Only DoD can plan, muster, resource and deliver the immediate response. (That is the underlying weak spot in all this "whole-of-government" thing). No other agencies have the resources and firepower.

Behind the scenes, a report in the Post indicated that the new US AID Director has been the substantive civilian in charge, and, based on prior experience, is apparently pretty good at it. (A reprieve for USAID's future). But they lack actual experts and staffing---just longer-range contract responses at the moment.

State first came out with an order for US citizens to get to the airport for flights home, then rescinded that for "shelter in place." Other than stumbling around, they don't seem to have their act together, or any relevant juice or resources.

I would have been happy to jump on a plane the first day, but like Honore indicated, the infrastructure and supporting framework isn't in place yet. Just another mouth to feed, and one without a backhoe or jack hammer (what's needed now). I can operate one, but I can't carry one across the pond.

The thought of seeing an injured loved one inches away, but separated by chunks of concrete, and what do you have to break through? Maybe a hammer< but probably just another hunk of concrete (futile).

As for the religion thing. What would Jesus do? Get a backhoe or jack hammer and go and try to rescue people!!!!

Behind the scenes, we already see the drones being diverted from Afghanistan to help. Great for Haiti, but, obviously, we now have another diversion of attention, leadership, resources (not a good thing).
Steve the Planner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010   #27
Schmedlap
Council Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,444
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve the Planner View Post
I would have been happy to jump on a plane the first day, but like Honore indicated, the infrastructure and supporting framework isn't in place yet. Just another mouth to feed, and one without a backhoe or jack hammer (what's needed now). I can operate one, but I can't carry one across the pond.
I spent hours searching the internet for any organization that was going to Haiti that I could tag along with. I am not a doctor, or a search and rescue specialist, nor do I have any experience in massive humanitarian disasters. What I am is able-bodied, a self-starter, someone who takes charge, willing to go, and adaptive. There were no slots for someone with those attributes.
Schmedlap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010   #28
Stan
Council Member
 
Stan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Estonia
Posts: 3,817
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
I spent hours searching the internet for any organization that was going to Haiti that I could tag along with. I am not a doctor, or a search and rescue specialist, nor do I have any experience in massive humanitarian disasters. What I am is able-bodied, a self-starter, someone who takes charge, willing to go, and adaptive. There were no slots for someone with those attributes.
As weird as this sounds (one would think a physically fit volunteer would be able to lift sierra, drive trucks, etc.), most of the aid agencies demand at least 10-years experience and previous overseas assignments for disaster relief volunteers. They justify these requirements because they are responsible for the volunteer's well-being (food, shelter, health and security) and will even go as far as saying you're more of a burden than assistance

The Estonian Disaster Relief Team (EDRT) under international law certifies that all her members meet the very same criteria. EDRT EOD Techs are required to speak a foreign language and possess at least 2 overseas tours in addition to the minimum 10-year rule.

Begs the question - how to get those two tours and obtain the disaster groupie team "pledge pin" if nobody will let you start

Yes, I have the pledge pin and shoulder patch too (Little did Tom know, by sending me into real sierra holes in the 90s I would by default possess the 2-tour requirement)
__________________
If you want to blend in, take the bus
Stan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010   #29
Beelzebubalicious
Council Member
 
Beelzebubalicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: currently in Washington DC
Posts: 321
Default

What we need is a civilian disaster response corps. If we start now, they should be ready for disasters in 2020. They could float around on modified cruise ships ready to sail when needed (after a short period of sobering up) one in each region or sea. We'd have another set in blimps and do on.....
Beelzebubalicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010   #30
slapout9
Council Member
 
slapout9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,810
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beelzebubalicious View Post
What we need is a civilian disaster response corps. If we start now, they should be ready for disasters in 2020. They could float around on modified cruise ships ready to sail when needed (after a short period of sobering up) one in each region or sea. We'd have another set in blimps and do on.....
You know with a little thought that ain't a half bad idea.....especially Blimps and Cruise Ships. Kinda like the old Buckminster Fuller Thinking. He said the best way to rebuild a broken city was to move the population offshore then go rebuild the city and then send them back to it.

Link to floating city.
http://www.buckminster.info/Index/T/Triton.htm

Last edited by slapout9; 01-16-2010 at 05:01 PM. Reason: Link
slapout9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010   #31
Firn
Council Member
 
Firn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,281
Default

Certainly a terrible, terrible catastrophe. To throw such a deeply offensive "stone" is to say the very least shameful. I completely agree with Danny.

Other than that it shows just how little it takes, especially in third world countries with very limited access to cause a catastrophe of such a magnitude. So many dead, so many wounded, so many needing the most basic of things. And how difficult it is to deliver it under such circumstances.


Firn
Firn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010   #32
Schmedlap
Council Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,444
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beelzebubalicious View Post
They could float around on modified cruise ships...
A floating Green Zone!
Schmedlap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010   #33
Beelzebubalicious
Council Member
 
Beelzebubalicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: currently in Washington DC
Posts: 321
Default

Just what we need, more separation from boots and the ground. To tell you the truth, it might not make much of a difference to some.
Beelzebubalicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010   #34
Brett Patron
Council Member
 
Brett Patron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Yorktown, Virginia
Posts: 45
Question

Just wondering....if you cite Satan as having subsumed a country beset with so much poverty, misery and general deprivation, is it "too big to fail"?
Brett Patron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2010   #35
Schmedlap
Council Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,444
Default

The humanitarian effort for Haiti is now being waged by major global powers, NGOs, charities, and it seems that just about every church, school, and other organization on the planet is doing what they can to pitch in.

If Haiti really did make a pact with the devil, then it seems that the devil is now getting kicked squarely in the nuts.
Schmedlap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2010   #36
Danny
Council Member
 
Danny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posts: 141
Default Ways to Haiti

Schemdlap,

I don't know any more than the next guy, but I would try the Red Cross or Samaritan's Purse (Franklin Graham of the Billy Graham organization). They are usually at the front of such efforts, and have already been to Haiti. It's just a matter of how many aircraft, vehicles, people and supplies can be gotten into one airport.

It all comes down to logistics. Oh how I love to point that out! Logistics, logistics, logistics. A land locked Afghanistan, or Haiti. The logisticians tell everyone else what to do.
Danny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2010   #37
Schmedlap
Council Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,444
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
I don't know any more than the next guy, but I would try the Red Cross or Samaritan's Purse (Franklin Graham of the Billy Graham organization).
Already done it.
Schmedlap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2010   #38
Xivvx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9
Default Haiti - The New Small War for Canada?

While not technically being a war per se, the way I see this shaping up at the moment is that the current humanitarian disaster in Hati is going to provide a springboard for Canada to further justify pulling out of Afghanistan in 2011 and return to "peacekeeping" rather than warfighting.

It is my belief that the Canadian public is sick of the war, wants to be out of it and helping Haiti might seem a better alternative mission for us to be engaged in. With the deployment of 1000 additional troops from Valcartier, the 500 on the ships, and the 200 man DART we have a commitment of 1700 personnel going to Haiti, if you count government workers in addition to this, our commitment approaches 2000. We have a little less than our current commitment in Afghanistan in Haiti to put it in focus.

I am interested in getting others thoughts regarding this, Will Haiti be Canada's new Afghanistan?

Edit: Fixed the title
Xivvx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2010   #39
John T. Fishel
Council Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Rancho La Espada, Blanchard, OK
Posts: 1,065
Default All politics is local - Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill

The former US Speaker of the House said that many years ago and it clearly applies to Canada's role in Haiti, not only during this humanitarian disaster, but in the crises of 1994 and 2004. As Glen Milne argues in his chapter in my edited book, Capacity Building for Peacekeeping: The Case of Haiti (pp. 53, 56) the Haitian - Canadian population of Montreal is critical to any referendum on the status of Quebec w/in the Canadian confederation. The last referendum was won by pro-Canada forces by less than 1% of the vote - much of the margin of victory provided by Haitian-Canadians.

Cheers

JohnT
John T. Fishel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2010   #40
Vahid
Council Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gatineau, Québec, Canada
Posts: 18
Default

Although I find the possibility of withdrawing Canadian troops from Afghanistan in the foreseeable future to be somewhat foolhardy, I concur that the impending Canadian mission in Haiti has rekindled the spirit of Canadian Humanitarian Mission abroad that was long presumed to have faded into oblivion (at least under the auspicies of Harper's government). Whilst the support for the Afghan mission was not socially rooted (perhaps due to the controversy surrounding it), the Haitian mission bears an intense social support (propped by the enormity of the crisis along with the stupendous media campaign launched by different outlets in Canada). Moreover, what is also instructive is the fact that Québec society has had well-established cultural links with that of Haiti (It's indubitable that language and religion have played a crucial role in reinforcing these links whereas in the case of Afghanistan, such links were absent). Lysiane Gagnon, a Globe and Mail columnist, has very cogently expatiated on this link:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1433167/
Vahid is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
development

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
UK military problems & policies SWJED Europe 259 5 Days Ago 03:44 PM
Israel (catch all: not intell or the IDF) davidbfpo Middle East 1 03-23-2017 01:53 PM
French urban rioting (catch all) SWJED Europe 37 02-22-2017 09:02 AM
SOUTHCOM POC for Haiti SWJED RFIs & Members' Projects 1 01-18-2010 02:10 AM
Don't Send a Lion to Catch a Mouse SWJED Futurists & Theorists 23 03-15-2007 11:46 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9. ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Registered Users are solely responsible for their messages.
Operated by, and site design © 2005-2009, Small Wars Foundation