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Thread: UK Declares Independence From The EU!

  1. #141
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    Secret video from the Boris HQ as the result came in.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a6H...ature=youtu.be

    UK Brexit leader Farage praises Putin, slams Obama
    http://dlvr.it/LgvPF9
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-29-2016 at 11:42 AM.

  2. #142
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    The EU single market for goods, services, people and capital is one and indivisible. You are a member or not. http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pr...al-meeting-27/

    Brexit bargain-hunting? Qatar Air to Explore Raising Stake in British Airways Owner
    http://bloom.bg/29osttM

    Interesting read.....
    Britain has picked the wrong time to play games
    , writes @edwardhadas:
    http://reut.rs/294dOnX
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-29-2016 at 03:23 PM.

  3. #143
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    Brilliant by @peterpomeranzev on his last few days in Brexit London.
    http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2016/06/29...aking-control/

    The blind man is still playing his tin whistle during rush hour at Green Park station and all the streets look the same, but the inner mental map I have of the world, the one that places me in a network of structures and institutions, has gone. The chain of associations I grew up with – me, London, England, United Kingdom, Europe – has buckled. Simple language loses meaning: What does ‘out’ actually mean? Or ‘in’? Or ‘the UK’?

    On Facebook everyone made sense of the vote according to the way they see the world. Because I study propaganda, I put it all down to that. Others said: ‘It’s austerity! Inequality! The economy!’ Yet others pointed out that affluent shires voted Brexit while poor parts of Scotland voted to Remain. ‘It’s identity! Immigration!’ Someone else pointed out that places with no immigration voted Leave too. ‘It’s generational!’ Everyone began to blame their parents.

    I itched for things to do. I signed four or maybe five petitions and then realised I didn’t agree with them. Someone called and told me there was a meeting to organise resistance at a flat in East London. I went along. Everyone was trying to decide what to do next.


    ‘This is about protecting the liberties and rights we have grown up with! We need to reframe the case for Europe as British liberties!’
    ‘It’s not about liberties! It’s about fairness!’
    ‘We’ll take a bus to the North to show them how much Europe does for them!’
    ‘Look at us! They won’t listen to us!’
    ‘We need to listen to them!’
    ‘We need to stop fascism!’

    Everyone could agree on that last one. We broke up into ‘committees’ for communications, campaigning, political lobbying. The man next to me had flow charts on his laptop: Brexit was inevitable; the UK would break apart; Scotland would leave; England and Wales would have a rump parliament; it would be a virtual one party state dominated by Ukip-sympathising Tories.

    We needed to think several steps ahead. Create a new party. Reform voting so it lets us in. Push for massive devolution for London. The UK might be gone. We might be out of the EU. But if London’s citizens had all the old freedoms to move and work in the EU, if businesses could still have their financial passport to operate in the EU from London, then London could be saved. What mattered was staying in the single market. The EU might be gone but there was still the European Economic Area. We would get the same deal as Norway.

    The present was a mystery, I thought the next morning, but I would be fine because I knew the future. ‘There is smoke on the platform at Baker Street,’ the tube driver said. ‘But don’t worry, it’s nothing dangerous.’

    Then someone texted me to say they’d talked to someone in the City who knew someone in Brussels who knew someone in Paris. The UK wouldn’t get a good EEA deal. There would be no financial passport. Instead we would be offered access to the single market with no concessions on immigration. Number 10 would have to insist on a curb on immigration to appease the anti-immigration Leavers. London would lose both freedom of movement and the financial passport. Paris would become the new London. We wouldn’t be Norway. I wondered if the government was getting Brussels to offer a bad deal on purpose so they could go back for a second referendum.

    At Green Park the blind man was still playing his tin whistle. I bought all the papers. I hadn’t bought a newspaper for years, looking at them online instead, but I wanted to see if I could read the runes and find a pattern. I spread them out on Berkeley Square. Birds ran over them.

    The Mail and the Sun were both stressing the financial dangers of Brexit and appeared to support staying in the free market, immigration be damned. The Telegraph too. All of them. In tune! Why the change? Suddenly the master plan seemed obvious. The moguls had used fear of immigration to get a Leave vote, but would now campaign for staying in the single market with no real barriers to immigration but released from EU obligations to protect workers. A libertarian plot! It all made sense. Hadn’t Boris Johnson and the editor of the Mail spent 9 June – or so I’d heard – in a closed room in Mark’s Club, with a small ladder blocking the door so no one could get in?

    Stop, I thought: you’re being conspiratorial. But aren’t conspiracies sometimes true? I stood on Charles Street and peered at Mark’s Club. Maybe if I hung around I would notice who was going in and coming out, and that would tell me something more about what was going on.

    I bought some sandwiches and settled in, surrounded by my newspapers. It struck me that I’d been here before. The confusion, impromptu meetings, conspiracy and superstition were what I had observed, with condescending Britishness, in revolutionary Ukraine; in Tbilisi, Southern Italy and Spain. We are leaving the EU but have become far more European – part of the messy Europe that Brexit is supposed to free us from. The Europe that EU bureaucrats think needs fixing. The Europe that wants to enter the EU in order to be fixed.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-29-2016 at 03:41 PM.

  4. #144
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    Outlaw 09:

    I’ll start off by apprising you that the FTSE 100 is above its June 23 close as of this moment, and that while the FTSE 250 is down ~7.47% from its June 23 close, it is higher than it was during the corrections in January and February of this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Here is the heart of the problem......racism is the key narrative being used by ALL the 11 active European neo rightist so called populist parties that are EVEN in the EU Parilment [sic] as per democratic elections. It is the same 11 neo right populist parties that since 2006 have received great attention by the FSB/SVR via money, internet info war support and invitations to neo right meetings in Russia and I can go on for a long way on this topic.
    Firstly, I completely disagree that it is racist or xenophobic to want to control who is allowed to reside in one’s country, especially when people who are opposed to one’s values want in merely to take advantage of welfare benefits and economic opportunities.

    Secondly, the GRU and SVR have supported political organizations on both the far-right and the far-left. The European far-left, which believes that Europe is inherently bad and pushes for the self-abnegation of Europe, is just as disruptive and bears much of the blame for attempting to transform Europe into a more temperate version of Africa and West Asia.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Wake up people this is not rocket science we just need to fully understand these populist movements as they are dangerous as they tip toe along the edge of fascism and do not believe for a second "fascism cannot evolve out of a democracy".......
    The threat of fascism being imposed via democracy, which is how the NSDAP came to power initially, should not mean that Europeans should engage in self-abnegation, especially as these newcomers who are so eager to contribute their “cultural richness” believe in authoritarianism if not totalitarianism and regard liberal democracy as weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    …all new members outside of the founders knew what the political price to play was going to be...it was never hidden by the founders and YET all new mouthed their YES but few of them really did want to go along. Take Greece...Germany openly questioned their application as they sensed the Greeks were lying about their economics and budgets and now we know the Greeks did in fact lie and committed fraud in the figures they provided to join and now they are being bailed out to the tune of over 245BILLION Euros by largely Germany. Then being bailed out and not having to declare to the world their are literally bankrupt they accuse the "German fourth REICH" for oppressing them......
    Yet the Western bankers, British and German included, knew that Greece was a basket case but bet heavily on the ECB backstopping the profligate Greeks. The Germans seem content to be substantial net contributors to the EU as part of their post-war “atonement” although they do benefit from a more competitive Euro than would be the case if they had retained the DM.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    …the Brit fishermen claimed bitterly when they voted to leave...
    The English did not vote for Brexit because of fisheries…

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    CAN you define for me this so called German "socialism"????
    I referred to it as “German” because Germany had been subjected to NSDAP rule and was a loser in both World Wars. Therefore, the German variant is unique because it encompasses national guilt over the war, war crimes and genocide. Merkel, who is nominally a member of the CDU, has publicly stated that Germany’s atonement should include allowing in all migrants and German socialists have stated that Germany should be settled by non-Germans. The issue here is not whether the state or private enterprise should deliver goods and services (I firmly believe in the state’s role), but Germany’s attempt to will itself out of existence and the proliferation of that desire in Western Europe and increasingly North America and Australasia.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    UK will never been able to return to the EU as a member regardless of what is ongoing inside the UK right now for attempts to stay in.
    Is the British government attempting to overrule the referendum? Not that I can see as yet. However, I have heard that behind closed doors, the British and the Europeans are working on the beginnings of a FTA. The anger of the Eurocrats such as Juncker, confirms that the non-UK EU regarded the UK as not only a source of subsidies but as a vital export market.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    …each of the EU member states must now protect themselves and the EU and fend off the neo right/fascist tendencies that one from outside is provoking in a deliberate fashion
    Are you referring to the UK or Russia here?

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    …So yes the UK will get an offer to rejoin the single market BUT they will be paying more than they did before leaving and will have no voice in the regulations and legal demands--meaning fulfill them in order to do business or simply do not trade with the EU BUT it will be tied to "free movement" something the UK Leave say they cannot do...
    Even if the UK joins the EFTA, it does not have to join Schengen. While the UK would have to allow in the proverbial Polish plumber, any of Merkel’s children or the undesirables of Hungary, Czech Republic and Romania (read Roma) can be deported.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    ...trade substitution will always be found and yes it will be a hiccup for a number of years but the UK will find out their EU trade was not that important to the EU...and all of those car factories UKIP is so proud of....they will be moved to the EU to maintain the tax and tariff benefits for export.
    Again, you have yet to refute my numbers that clearly show that the EU exports more to the UK than visa versa, and that UK exports to the EU have been steadily declining since 2000. If the EU can find a replacement market for the UK, then the UK can find a replacement market for the EU. In any event, EU manufacturers will be worse off than UK ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    …the populist movement UKIP and the Eurosceptic wings of Labour and Conservatives in the end destroyed the UK......economically and politically
    It is clear that the EU and its proponents have no respect for British democracy. On the one hand, you criticize Russia for being Fascist (authoritarian nationalist), but on the other you are derisive and hysterical when it comes to democracy being exercised in the UK. So to be clear, you are merely supporting one bloc bent on consolidating its power and expanding its reach against another with similar objectives.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    WHEN governments inside the EU make mistakes their civil societies blame automatically the EU BUT not their own governments and their poor governance...which reflects back onto the actions and or no actions taken by their own civil societies....via the democratic ballot box...
    The UK’s withdrawal from the EU is only the beginning of a long struggle to regain control over its borders. The “Social Justice Warriors” in the courts and parliament remain powerful, but at least the ones in Brussels and Strasbourg have been tackled. I completely agree that the EU has been blamed for domestic errors, and it wasn’t Brussels that forced Berlin to welcome over one million migrants or for the UK and Sweden to establish Sharia zones. Nevertheless, Brexit is a good starting point for the UK.

  5. #145
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    Azor
    ...unless you can discuss the actual border controls imposed by Europe and the Warsaw Pact from say 1967 to 1991 and have experienced them and then have been issued a Schengen "Title" to free cross border travel within the EU with the exception of the UK then you really cannot comment on the issue of "free movement". I still have the passport stamps and with the Warsaw Pact crossings...fond memory of their strip searches.....

    If you heard the President of the EU Council who stated yesterday that he has told his Commissioners there will be no private talks with anyone connected to the UK nor will he allow UK to contact them.....so I am not so sure where you heard there are "private discussions"......

    If you heard today Tusk state there cannot be access to the single market with acceptance of the free movement of labor which is one of the core EU Four Freedoms and that the UK cannot cherry pick.

    If you heard Jaguar state that they might in fact have to move to the EU to continue to do business as has Nissan so stated as well....

    And if you heard Cameron in Parliament today when someone asked if their were other options like going the WTO route he stated that with WTO tariffs of 10% on cars and say 34% on milk products that route would not work and he stated one the single market is the way forward....

    If you have seen comments by other traders it is not hard in the least bit to shift EU trade and the UK imports most of their agricultural products and most of the finished goods coming in are just in time supply chain deliveries for manufacturers ie auto etc......

    They can simply move the factories to EU and the supply chain moves with them....thus trade flows can actually be shifted easier than many think......we saw this inside the EU with Russian sanctions

    EU....The Four Freedoms which constitute the core beliefs of the EU and you cannot pick and choose....

    Chapter 1: Free Movement of Goods

    The free movement of goods is one of the freedoms of the single market of the European Union. Since January 1993, controls on the movement of goods within the internal market have been abolished and the European Union is now a single territory without internal frontiers. The abolition of customs tariffs promotes intra-Community trade, which accounts for a large part of the total imports and exports of the Member States.

    Chapter 2: Freedom of movement for workers

    As one of the fundamental freedoms guaranteed by European Union (EU) Law, freedom of movement for workers, pursuant to Article 45 TFEU (ex. Article 39 ECT), guarantees every EU citizen the right to move freely, to stay and to work in another member state. Some exceptions can only be made in the public sector. This freedom applies to all member states' citizens regadless of nationality as well as to the European Economic Area (Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway). In relation to free access to labour market, this chapter considers nondiscriminatory treatment of workers who are legally employed in a country other than their country of origin. It means that discrimination on the basis of nationality, residence and/or language is not permissible and it also includes equal treatment in basic employment conditions, remuneration, dismissal and the receipt of social advantages.

    Furthermore, certain rights are also extended to family members of the worker. Implications and concept of this freedom have been further interpreted and developed by the case-law of the ECJ, including the notion of worker itself. Provisions related to supplementary pension rights of employed and self-employed persons moving within the EU are also included in the general principles of freedom of movement for workers.

    Chapter 3: Right of establishment and freedom to provide services

    This chapter covers a large variety of fields and professions and involves many public and/or semi-public institutions and bodies and it is of a horizontal nature. As laid down in the Articles 49 and 56 of the TFEU It is the obligation of Member States to ensure unhampered right of establishment of EU nationals and legal persons in any Member State and the freedom to provide cross-border services. Exceptions to this rule are set out in the Treaty. Directive 2006/123 on services in the internal market ('Services Directive'), largely based on the case law of the European Court of Justice, represents the core piece of acquis in this area. The objective of this Directive is to achieve a genuine Internal Market in services. This is to be done by removing barriers (both legal and administrative) to the development of service activities between Member States.

    Comprehensive examination of the Member States’ current and future legal order is therefore required for achevement of this objective, and aim of the examination is to identify legal or administrative obstacles on national, regional or local level not compatible with EU law. Member States need to take a combination of legislative and non-legislative measures for the implementation of the Services Directive. As a horizontal instrument, Directive covers a broad range of different services and affects a significant number of national laws and regulations.

    Chapter 4: Free movement of capital

    All restrictions on movement of capital both within the EU and between Member States and third countries have to be removed, certain exceptions aside. The acquis in this area is based on the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, in particular Articles 63-66. Annex I of Directive 88/361/EEC provides the definition of the different types of capital movements. Additional interpretation of the above Articles is provided by relevant case-law of the European Court of Justice and Commission Communications 97/C220/06 and 2005/C293/02.
    BTW..one issue the UK wanted to side step by Leave not was recognizing the ECJ.....this is what they meant by "the EU controlling our right to make our own laws and regulations"....

    NOTICE the European Court of Justice is an inherent part an parcel of the Four Fredoms..so if they want to access the single market then they must also accept the ECJ.....which Leave rejects as they do Free Movement. Part Three was also agitating the Leave side......check out why the UK laws had to conform to EU law/regulations by reading Part Three......

    So how in the heck are they to access the single market when they do not accept the Four Freedoms and the EU will not give ground on any of them...

    Reference the EEA...this is a pay and play group and the fees are not the lowest and in the case of the UK will be higher than the regular EU fees AND the UK will have no voice in the decisions of the EU.

    Reference the protection of EU citizens in UK and the UK citizens in the EU...the UK MUST accept Freedom of Movement as that regulates and protects each others citizens.....where ever they reside in the EU.....the Leave talks about this but then says we will place restrictions ie Points System on those coming into the UK....including EU citizens......so you do not think the EU will not reciprocate equally with restrictions on UK citizens......

    You really think this is going to end well for UK??????

    Populism: the end game
    http://wpo.st/blUj1

    .@mlafontrapnouil of @ECFRParis explains France, Germany and Ireland are all interested in taking pieces of the City of London if UK Leaves.

    .@mlafontrapnouil of @ECFRParis says: "Now no EU leader will ever call for a referendum on EU membership again unless want to leave."


    .@mlafontrapnouil says @ECFRParis French view a British Norway option doubtfully: "That is viewed as everything the UK voted against."

    .@mlafontrapnouil of @ECFRParis says the French position is: "Leave means Leave, and default status is WTO status."

    .@mlafontrapnouil the head of @ECFRParis says France wants Article 50 invoked now.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-29-2016 at 07:37 PM.

  6. #146
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    EU tells UK single market access requires full free movement
    http://reut.rs/290Fk3f

    The pound worth LESS THAN THE EURO at Orly airport
    https://twitter.com/pusher555/status/748132282557407232

  7. #147
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    Swedish mother told to "f*** off back to your own country" when speaking Swedish with her kids in York. #Brexit
    http://m.yorkpress.co.uk/news/145849..._own_country_/

  8. #148
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    Without the UK....

    New EU summit September 16 in Bratislava to discuss Brexit: Tusk

    http://europe.liveuamap.com/en/2016/...ava-to-discuss

    EU is awaiting the UK Article 50 then with the UK indicating their new PM in place on Sept 9....the EU is moving now faster than the UK anticipated......

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    ...unless you can discuss the actual border controls imposed by Europe and the Warsaw Pact from say 1967 to 1991 and have experienced them and then have been issued a Schengen "Title" to free cross border travel within the EU with the exception of the UK then you really cannot comment on the issue of "free movement". I still have the passport stamps and with the Warsaw Pact crossings...fond memory of their strip searches…
    I don’t know how the WP/CMEA border controls are relevant to the debate over Brexit. Strip searches and other harassment was common at those crossings as the guards were well aware that people were smuggling in hard Western currency to relatives behind the Iron Curtain. It is one thing to be able to get a close look at one’s adversary; it is quite another to deal with hidden pockets and mostly blacked-out letters because one’s loved ones are in that adversary’s clutches…

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    …there cannot be access to the single market with acceptance of the free movement of labor which is one of the core EU Four Freedoms and that the UK cannot cherry pick.
    Free trade deals with the EU are possible, along the lines of the Canadian or Israeli deals. Note that both the UK and Ireland as EU members had opted out of the Schengen Agreement, as has Svalbard in Norway (EFTA). Switzerland is a member of the EFTA but not the EEA and has signed a FTA with the EU. Denmark and Poland are two other EU members who have opt-outs to EU protocols and the Czech Republic is considering one as well.

    A number of Leave voters are protectionist and want to restrict European workers from working in the UK. However, from what I have seen, the Leave concern is primarily with non-working migrants entering the UK by way of the EU and then claiming British benefits, in particular migrants crossing from Calais through the Chunnel (originally from Africa and West Asia) and Roma families from Eastern Europe. Norway is not obligated to support non-working migrants from the EU the way it would be if it was an EU member state.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Reference the EEA...this is a pay and play group and the fees are not the lowest and in the case of the UK will be higher than the regular EU fees AND the UK will have no voice in the decisions of the EU…British Norway option doubtful…
    Actually, the UK’s payments to the EFTA would be ~87% lower according to this analysis (http://euquestion.blogspot.ca/2016/0...rsus-efta.html)

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    …the European Court of Justice is an inherent part an parcel of the Four Freedoms..so if they want to access the single market then they must also accept the ECJ.....which Leave rejects as they do Free Movement. Part Three was also agitating the Leave side......check out why the UK laws had to conform to EU law/regulations by reading Part Three...
    The ECJ does not apply to the EEA, which has a separate EFTA Court, and the EFTA Court does not apply to Switzerland.

    No one knows how Brexit will play out and the demand for certainty now is only creating uncertainty. No amount of post-Brexit corporate soundbites intended to frighten Britons have any bearing on firms' capital allocations over the next 5-10 years.

    The UK stock market clearly regards Brexit as less worrisome than the monetary policy divergence started by the US Fed in December, and its subsequent asset revaluations.

    The European Council and Commission's poor behavior in light of Brexit only confirms the disdain for national democracy and illuminates Brussels' desire to create a United States of Europe.

    Remember the American example of state vs. super-state competition? Remember how American casualty rates among fighting men were on par with the Soviet-German experience from 1940-1945? Not to be hyperbolic but the EU is the creator of its own problems, due to its desire for top-down central control at the expense of national assemblies.

    From a cultural perspective, the role of Germany has proved dangerous. I take the British view from the 1920s, that the German national "star" should join the galaxy of other nations. Well, unfortunately, Germany did a supernova and almost wiped out a number of other stars. The Allies tried to keep Germany as a dwarf star, but it has collapsed in on itself and is crushing the rest of Europe with the power of its own self-destruction. And the British said, no thanks. Hopefully Merkel has her own bunker in Berlin for when her "children" come looking for some spending money...

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    Default Doreen from The Black Country weighs in

    I note an earlier post where once again Hitler last days in a bunker is used to explain.

    Far better is Doreen, a comedian from The Black Country (to the west of Birmingham), whose use of "Yam, Yam" and other words is far, far better in describing where she finds herself. Views count: 1.6m views. Behind the humour is an all too accurate description of where she is, just maybe in Birmingham too:https://www.facebook.com/doreentipto...type=2&theater
    davidbfpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    I note an earlier post where once again Hitler last days in a bunker is used to explain.

    Far better is Doreen, a comedian from The Black Country (to the west of Birmingham), whose use of "Yam, Yam" and other words is far, far better in describing where she finds herself. Views count: 1.6m views. Behind the humour is an all too accurate description of where she is, just maybe in Birmingham too:https://www.facebook.com/doreentipto...type=2&theater

    Outstanding! Now there's British humour for you...

    Do you really want to lose the British sense of humour to the hysterics in Southern Europe or the German literalists (as Le Carre would have it)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azor View Post
    I don’t know how the WP/CMEA border controls are relevant to the debate over Brexit. Strip searches and other harassment was common at those crossings as the guards were well aware that people were smuggling in hard Western currency to relatives behind the Iron Curtain. It is one thing to be able to get a close look at one’s adversary; it is quite another to deal with hidden pockets and mostly blacked-out letters because one’s loved ones are in that adversary’s clutches…



    Free trade deals with the EU are possible, along the lines of the Canadian or Israeli deals. Note that both the UK and Ireland as EU members had opted out of the Schengen Agreement, as has Svalbard in Norway (EFTA). Switzerland is a member of the EFTA but not the EEA and has signed a FTA with the EU. Denmark and Poland are two other EU members who have opt-outs to EU protocols and the Czech Republic is considering one as well.

    A number of Leave voters are protectionist and want to restrict European workers from working in the UK. However, from what I have seen, the Leave concern is primarily with non-working migrants entering the UK by way of the EU and then claiming British benefits, in particular migrants crossing from Calais through the Chunnel (originally from Africa and West Asia) and Roma families from Eastern Europe. Norway is not obligated to support non-working migrants from the EU the way it would be if it was an EU member state.



    Actually, the UK’s payments to the EFTA would be ~87% lower according to this analysis (http://euquestion.blogspot.ca/2016/0...rsus-efta.html)



    The ECJ does not apply to the EEA, which has a separate EFTA Court, and the EFTA Court does not apply to Switzerland.

    No one knows how Brexit will play out and the demand for certainty now is only creating uncertainty. No amount of post-Brexit corporate soundbites intended to frighten Britons have any bearing on firms' capital allocations over the next 5-10 years.

    The UK stock market clearly regards Brexit as less worrisome than the monetary policy divergence started by the US Fed in December, and its subsequent asset revaluations.

    The European Council and Commission's poor behavior in light of Brexit only confirms the disdain for national democracy and illuminates Brussels' desire to create a United States of Europe.

    Remember the American example of state vs. super-state competition? Remember how American casualty rates among fighting men were on par with the Soviet-German experience from 1940-1945? Not to be hyperbolic but the EU is the creator of its own problems, due to its desire for top-down central control at the expense of national assemblies.

    From a cultural perspective, the role of Germany has proved dangerous. I take the British view from the 1920s, that the German national "star" should join the galaxy of other nations. Well, unfortunately, Germany did a supernova and almost wiped out a number of other stars. The Allies tried to keep Germany as a dwarf star, but it has collapsed in on itself and is crushing the rest of Europe with the power of its own self-destruction. And the British said, no thanks. Hopefully Merkel has her own bunker in Berlin for when her "children" come looking for some spending money...
    Azor ....more examples of the so called "racism" that has been inherent for literally years before the EU entry and which was exploited to drive the Leave vote....

    A good Brit friend of mine from Cisco days who had badly speaking the last name Khan .....his family was literally British living in UK for over 70 odd years before taking a big risk and jumping to Mali where they setup a large farm, paid their black employees a solid wage for those days and then exported the products to the UK....

    ALL the time UK passport holders and with full British citizenship...

    THEN geopolitical politics struck and their farm was taken from them by the Mali government and they were given 72 hours to leave Mali...THEN they tried to to reenter the UK by going to the Kenyan UK Embassy and were turned away....AS UK passport holders.....

    THEN they then spent four years in a refugee camp near the Kenyan capital awaiting an immigration number to enter the country they had lived in for over 70 odd years before leaving.

    NOW sit back think about it and tell me that was not racist and massively controlling even former UK citizens and UK passport holders.

    And the UK complains now about free movement of labor..come on Azor think....

    NOW from my experiences with the UK immigration that I experienced up front and personal....which goes to what the Leave side claims they want to get back to......

    In 1997, I was approached by Cisco UK and offered for the tech days a really really solid salary, housing paid, a fistful of stock options, fuel card and a car of my choice just to come to the UK...why I was at that time only one of four with a certain specialty in the IT/internet world AND automatically paying 35% tax burden up front. BTW that fistful of options with splits made me a paper millionaire as they did for a large bunch of UK tech types as well.

    THEN Cisco applied for the tech visa which at that time took an average of 1-2 months to get usually via a law firm....four months later they were still waiting with the work visa side with the UK constantly adding new requirements that had to be fulfilled with the reasoning you must first hire a qualified Brit then a "foreigner".....WELL at that time Cisco even proved based on the available unemployed Brits that they were all under qualified and no one in the UK matched my skill sets.

    Well then in typical US fashion the workaround kicked in .....I came in as a paid Consultant to Cisoc UK from Cisco US and worked until the visa actually came through two months later.

    When I arrived in Heathrow with seven bags an a smile on my face...the Immigration Officer asked me the reason for my visit...confident response...visiting...he looked at the seven bags and said for how long ...oh a couple of months and then onto Europe for an extended tourist visit in a number of countries.......passport stamped and in we came.... maybe I was "white" but maybe that was not the reason.......

    Then when the work visa arrived the single UK requirement was it had to be validated at a UK Embassy or Consulate OUTSIDE the UK.....the UK law firm said.....take the first early morning plane to Brussels and then go by taxi to the UK Embassy and stand there until they open, present the visa and pay a small fee and then enjoy Brussles and fly back in the evening. We did, got the visa and enjoyed a day in Brussels before flying back....

    WHY Brussels..various UK law firms viewed it as being a "tech visa friendly Embassy"....even the UK Immigration knew the workaround as they smiled when I returned with absolutely no bagge supposedly coming from the States via Brussels and on to London.....come on Azor think......

    They did not even check the entry stamps of any of the airports in my passport....

    So my friend if this is the system as stated by BoJo......"a points based system based on need"..is implemented...WELL that was exactly what I was with my visa.....you are being fooled that it is a great system and it will work ........

    It did not in 1997 and it will not in 2016....ask my friend also just how UK passport holders are treated with the WRONG last name....then ask yourself...no racism in the UK...come on think....
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-30-2016 at 06:42 AM.

  13. #153
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    Azor...BTW the 2plus increase in both FTSEs was investment funds picking up great deals on old guard solid UK stocks that were badly hit and way below their true values ie the Chinese buying into Branson's assets which were reduced by 33%.

    The key point you missed is that the FTSE 100 fell a total of 9% and the 250 fell over 14% so they have a long long way to go to even recover to their original pricing values and may never recovery.

    Secondly, it is the GPB that needs to be watched....it has never traded under 1.40 for more than one day in it's entire history....it tanked to 1.31 and has only climbed TWO CENTS....not much of a recovery is it????

    BTW....this is just how bad the GBP has been hit......

    Kyrgyzstan: Hey, this Brexit thing not so bad. It gained over 134% against the GBP....

  14. #154
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    Azor...this is even more incidental evidence that fellow Brits working in the EU do not believe that the UK will not be able to guarantee their current EU rights as BoJo and even UKIP has repeatedly stated during Leave and after....

    Those residing in EU know the requirements to remain and it all hinges on Freedom of Movement that the Leave and UKIP was totally against....AND the EU repeated yesterday are not up for negotiations on.....as it is a core EU value.

    Hectic morning in a Brussels completely dominated by Brexit mechanics. Meeting many UK nationals seeking Irish or other EU citizenship.
    There are a large number here......

    BTW these Brits did not have the right to vote in Brexit and that is so called UK democracy hard at work....even expat Turkish citizens can vote in their national elections and the EU even helped Turkey setup polling stations in a large number of communities.....THAT my friend is real democracy hard at work....

    BUT WAIT Turks are just lousy immigrants taking advantage of our social system would be the UK argument of Leave.....think Azor think.....
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-30-2016 at 07:03 AM.

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    Azor...you send an unusual amount of time trying to discredit my comments on the financial disaster about to hit the UK and even argue well goin another will balance it all out in the end..exactly what Leave has arued repeatedly for years.

    WELL this is from the Economist Intelligence Unit......

    Alex White
    ‏@AlexWhite1812
    twitter.com/alexwhite1812/status/748194632295649280 …

    EIU Brexit Take

    1. Brexit has plunged the UK into political, economic and market turmoil. We expect this turmoil to be sustained

    2. Financial market volatility will persist, while uncertainty over the future of the UK's relationship with EU will feed into real economy

    3. We significantly revised our economic fcast. After growth of 1.5% this year, we expect contraction of 1% in 2017

    4. We expect to see decline in investment of 8% and decline in private consumption of 3% in 2017 with the pound levelling out at $1.24

    5. The vote has transformed our fiscal forecasts. Falling tax rev & higher social transfers as unemployment rises

    6. We now expect the UK's public debt burden to reach 100% of GDP by 2018......(My NOTE...getting close to Greek standards....)

    7. This hit brings UK's post-crisis recovery to a halt. 2018 real GDP will be almost 4% below pre-referendum forecast (2020 = 6% below)

    8. While this is going on, politics will remain deeply fractious. The Govt, the main parties, parliament & the Union all face big threats

    9. We expect two months of chaos in the near-term. New PM Johnson (or May) will be in post in Sept, and start to figure out way ahead
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 06-30-2016 at 09:27 AM. Reason: Fix quote - from EIU Tweets

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    Azor...BTW....the biggest threat now is that UKIP is going to go after the dissatisfied Labour voters which they can in fact draw in making them the second strongest party and on the far right of the political spectrum.

    This was after the results were announced is clearly what the UKIP leader stated he would in fact do...but no one "heard him"...Europe did.

    Yesterday the largest donor to UKIP stated they are changing their name to make them sound far more serious....the first step on this path if you ask me....

    So was the Leave referendum really the start to setup long term project to get a major far right party ruling UK??????

    IMHO...yes it was.......using immigration and bashing EU as the smokescreen to hide their true intentions and when the pain truly hits all of the UK then even more will follow the "pied piper".

    People love populist parties until their are elected.....remember that when this happens...
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-30-2016 at 07:19 AM.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Azor...you send an unusual amount of time trying to discredit my comments on the financial disaster about to hit the UK and even argue well goin another will balance it all out in the end..exactly what Leave has arued repeatedly for years.

    WELL this is from the Economist Intelligence Unit......

    Alex White
    ‏@AlexWhite1812
    twitter.com/alexwhite1812/status/748194632295649280 …

    EIU Brexit Take

    1. Brexit has plunged the UK into political, economic and market turmoil. We expect this turmoil to be sustained

    2. Financial market volatility will persist, while uncertainty over the future of the UK's relationship with EU will feed into real economy

    3. We significantly revised our economic fcast. After growth of 1.5% this year, we expect contraction of 1% in 2017

    4. We expect to see decline in investment of 8% and decline in private consumption of 3% in 2017 with the pound levelling out at $1.24

    5. The vote has transformed our fiscal forecasts. Falling tax rev & higher social transfers as unemployment rises

    6. We now expect the UK's public debt burden to reach 100% of GDP by 2018......(My NOTE...getting close to Greek standards....)

    7. This hit brings UK's post-crisis recovery to a halt. 2018 real GDP will be almost 4% below pre-referendum forecast (2020 = 6% below)

    8. While this is going on, politics will remain deeply fractious. The Govt, the main parties, parliament & the Union all face big threats

    9. We expect two months of chaos in the near-term. New PM Johnson (or May) will be in post in Sept, and start to figure out way ahead
    Anders Östlund @andersostlund
    My guess on #Brexit: British establishment will wait for the pain to felt across UK, then fully or partly ignore result of the referendum.

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    Azor.......here is the fallacy in thinking of many in the UK and that includes UKIP and the two major parties.

    The Article 50 trigger states that once it is triggered it must be completed inside two years....this plan is mainly how the UK will detangle itself, legally and financially from the EU and how it envisions going forward with the EU.

    Then the EU will approve or disapproved whatever plan the UK presents to stay in the single market....if it wants to but then they will state the costs as well to stay associated.

    THIS is to happen all inside a maximum of two years .......

    Then the EU will approve whatever comes out of the talks...once approved again inside the two years....all ties are cut immediately to the UK...end of story.

    All the Leavers had calculated that EU funding would still flow until all laws, finances and trade were worked out which will take the UK up to an estimated 15 years to finally get under control.....

    Nope......once the plan is approved and that must be done inside two years...UK is on it own and nothing further flows from the EU that is exactly why the Leavers are trying to drag out triggering Article 50...

    Interesting that they never said that during the referendum campaign....ever wonder why?????

  19. #159
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    Azor...you cannot make this up any more...the core driver on the Conservative side to Leave was BoJo....AND then realizing he was to going into history as the one triggering Article 50....and delivering economic pain to UK.... simply drops out...what the heck is this as an example of UK democracy...

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...downing-street

    Mustn't forget amid the Gove/Johnson circus that the real scrutiny and focus of attention should be on Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre.

    Our nation's rulers (Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre) have just announced the nomination for their Prime Minister: it's Michael Gove.

    On Monday @rupertmurdoch said Gove "most principled and most able” candidate & "could run a fine government”. Three days later he's running
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-30-2016 at 01:35 PM.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Azor...you cannot make this up any more...the core driver on the Conservative side to Leave was BoJo....AND then realizing he was to going into history as the one triggering Article 50....and delivering economic pain to UK.... simply drops out...what the heck is this as an example of UK democracy...

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...downing-street

    Mustn't forget amid the Gove/Johnson circus that the real scrutiny and focus of attention should be on Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre.

    Our nation's rulers (Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre) have just announced the nomination for their Prime Minister: it's Michael Gove.

    On Monday @rupertmurdoch said Gove "most principled and most able” candidate & "could run a fine government”. Three days later he's running
    In light of today's events, this by @NickCohen4 on Gove & Johnson, the worst of liars, is well worth a read: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-gove-eu-liars

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