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Thread: Counter-narratives and Info Ops: Debating Jihadi YouTube Videos

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erich G. Simmers View Post

    More important than the local discourse are the global networks of insurgent groups that use media such as YouTube to support the political aspect of their missions. How do we go about disrupting that flow of information? Do we take a "CT"-esque approach using lawfare and denial of service to close down these sites as they pop up? Or do we engage in the discourse? Personally, I think we should acknowledge the limitations of the former and do much more of the latter in terms of trusted local partners.
    Why discourse? This isn't a debate. You don't have a discourse with drug dealers do you?

    Why not just do what harms them most within the constraints of the policy? Break their will. Make their life misery. Harass them.

    Are they worth it and can you can change the law to allow it is another question.
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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Why discourse? This isn't a debate. You don't have a discourse with drug dealers do you?
    No, but we do have discourse with the drug users that keep the drug dealers in business: a fair bit of effort (mostly ineffectual but still there) goes into education and persuasion aimed at getting people not to start using drugs and to persuade users to stop. Similarly we aim information at potential insurgents and insurgent supporters in an effort to get them to withdraw support and leave the insurgent exposed. Not an answer in itself, but useful as one tactic among many, and though we've done it badly often enough that's no reason not to try and do it better.

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Similarly we aim information at potential insurgents and insurgent supporters in an effort to get them to withdraw support and leave the insurgent exposed. Not an answer in itself, but useful as one tactic among many, and though we've done it badly often enough that's no reason not to try and do it better.
    Concur, but that is part of the normal political dialogue within any society, the same way as "don't smoke" is part of normal health education. Part of a normal political dialogue is the denigration of violence, as part of the political process.

    You are not aiming to furnish them with information on which to make "informed choices". You are saying "cross the line and we'll f**k you up!" - so "sell drugs and we'll lock you away." I see this as no more than simply and clearly stating a policy.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Concur, but that is part of the normal political dialogue within any society, the same way as "don't smoke" is part of normal health education. Part of a normal political dialogue is the denigration of violence, as part of the political process.
    Of course it's part of the normal political process... not just the denigration of violence but pointing out the advantages of non-violent options for achieving the same goals (assuming any exist, though in many insurgent-affected societies they don't). Why should we remove normal parts of the political process from our toolbox?

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    You are not aiming to furnish them with information on which to make "informed choices". You are saying "cross the line and we'll f**k you up!" - so "sell drugs and we'll lock you away." I see this as no more than simply and clearly stating a policy.
    Then the insurgent slides up and whispers in their ear "see, all they can do is threaten you, we understand your problems and your grievances and we can help you snuff those arrogant threatening A-holes". Threats can be seen as a challenge, and sometimes people aren't intimidated. You might recall an old saying about how you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar...

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Of course it's part of the normal political process... not just the denigration of violence but pointing out the advantages of non-violent options for achieving the same goals (assuming any exist, though in many insurgent-affected societies they don't). Why should we remove normal parts of the political process from our toolbox?
    I would not. As you say it's "normal." I'd just do nothing. Normal is already there.
    Then the insurgent slides up and whispers in their ear "see, all they can do is threaten you, we understand your problems and your grievances and we can help you snuff those arrogant threatening A-holes". Threats can be seen as a challenge, and sometimes people aren't intimidated.
    ..but that assumes that the insurgent has the bones of a legitimate grievance. In the case of the UK, if some young Muslim thinks the UK should leave Afghanistan, nothing the UK Government can say will stop him opting for violence, if he wishes, except the concept of sanction and/or retribution.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    I would not. As you say it's "normal." I'd just do nothing. Normal is already there.
    If the situation was "normal" you wouldn't be there, no? I'm assuming that your objective is to return an abnormal situation to something approaching normality.

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    ..but that assumes that the insurgent has the bones of a legitimate grievance. In the case of the UK, if some young Muslim thinks the UK should leave Afghanistan, nothing the UK Government can say will stop him opting for violence, if he wishes, except the concept of sanction and/or retribution.
    You're not only targeting the committed insurgent who has already make up his mind. If there's doubt in the mind of an insurgent or an insurgent supporter, you want that doubt to grow. If someone is considering joining or supporting, you want to provide reasons not to. Lot of people out there who are, to one extent or another, on the fence.

    Of course in any given situation you need to know who you're targeting and what kind of information might have an impact on their decision-making process. Generalized "we're good they're bad" stuff is not likely to be effective, neither is coming off like a used car salesman.

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    If someone is considering joining or supporting, you want to provide reasons not to. Lot of people out there who are, to one extent or another, on the fence.
    OK, but that assumes the person you are engaging with will make a rational choice, based on facts or argument. My experience is that folks almost never do that
    ....which is why I see very little utility in debating issues that people are trying to settle via violence.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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