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Thread: Tentative Guidelines for building partner armies post conflict

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    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Dayuhan,

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Certainly it's possible to hypothesize a development model that does not rely on concrete roads, and with sufficient central direction (sufficient meaning a whole lot) one might even implement such a model. While the desire for military mobility in general (not only for tanks) has in many cases driven road construction programs, I'm not convinced that military considerations in general or tanks specifically have been the principal reason for the emergence of road/motor-based development paradigms.
    Actually, I don't have to hypothesize it; it's how Britain, France, the US and most of Western Europe industrialized. The concrete road phenomenon is a result of post WW I development activities both internally and externally. If you wanted more modern examples, Singapore and Brunei offer different ones (variants on the old Port of Trade model using waterborne transport).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    To assess the social consequences of the decision to acquire tanks and the (frequently absent) decision to use them efficiently you'd hve to separate those consequences from those of a whole raft of other parallel factors, and I suspect that at the end of the day the causative role of the decision to acquire tanks would be fairly minor.
    Could be, although I'm not sure how much you could disaggregate them causally given that people often make decisions with minimal logic and multiple justifications (this, BTW, is why I tend to preffer the concept of "mutual arising" to that of "causality").

    Cheers,

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
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    It is, perhaps, not insignificant that when Eisenhower announced our soon to be interstate system, it was as the "National Defense Highway System."

    On the other hand, one can read too much into names. We have a "National Defense School Lunch Program" here, too. That's because tacking "National Defense" on (or "Patriot" for that matter) is a way of shutting down debate. "What? You oppose this thing with 'National Defense' on its label? You unpatriotic B#$^#%d!"

    Minimal logic? Often no logic. Moreover, when someone tries to present a number of reasons for something, very often none of them have any place in the thing at all, but are just camouflage for some other underlying reason they just don't want to admit to. Kind of a pedestrian example of that: We had this female who had come back from Iraq on emergency leave. Every other day she came up with a different excuse not to go back - my mother's dying, I was sexually assaulted, I have this inexplicable pain...etc. I think there were nine such, in total; not unimpressive from a girl who really wasn't all that bright. Then she made a mistake, she brought her three year old son into the office, at which point it became self evident that _that_ was the real reason she didn't want to go back; she missed her _baby_.

    As I pointed out to the SF colonel I was working for, as I handed him the open regulation on how to send her butt back to the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Hi Dayuhan,



    Actually, I don't have to hypothesize it; it's how Britain, France, the US and most of Western Europe industrialized. The concrete road phenomenon is a result of post WW I development activities both internally and externally. If you wanted more modern examples, Singapore and Brunei offer different ones (variants on the old Port of Trade model using waterborne transport).



    Could be, although I'm not sure how much you could disaggregate them causally given that people often make decisions with minimal logic and multiple justifications (this, BTW, is why I tend to preffer the concept of "mutual arising" to that of "causality").

    Cheers,

    Marc
    Last edited by Tom Kratman; 04-15-2010 at 06:42 PM.

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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Actually, I don't have to hypothesize it; it's how Britain, France, the US and most of Western Europe industrialized. The concrete road phenomenon is a result of post WW I development activities both internally and externally. If you wanted more modern examples, Singapore and Brunei offer different ones (variants on the old Port of Trade model using waterborne transport).
    Early industrialization in Britain, France, and the US was built around and shaped by the modes of transport that were available at that time. They didn't decide to eschew motors and roads because of the potential consequences; they used what they have. That mode is not likely to be repeated in places that have the road-and-motor option, unless geography supports it strongly, as in Singapore and Brunei, which also have most excellent roads and plenty of motors. Once upon a time industry developed along fall lines where shops could be powered by water wheels; this pattern is also not likely to evolve again!

    Seems to me that the concrete road phenomenon was driven by the reduction of the internal combustion engine to a size that made small, independently mobile vehicles feasible. People use what's available to them, and convenience generally outweighs conscious policy.

    Somewhere poor Colin is rolling his eyes and wondering where we took his thread!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Early industrialization in Britain, France, and the US was built around and shaped by the modes of transport that were available at that time. They didn't decide to eschew motors and roads because of the potential consequences; they used what they have. That mode is not likely to be repeated in places that have the road-and-motor option, unless geography supports it strongly, as in Singapore and Brunei, which also have most excellent roads and plenty of motors. Once upon a time industry developed along fall lines where shops could be powered by water wheels; this pattern is also not likely to evolve again!

    Seems to me that the concrete road phenomenon was driven by the reduction of the internal combustion engine to a size that made small, independently mobile vehicles feasible. People use what's available to them, and convenience generally outweighs conscious policy.

    Somewhere poor Colin is rolling his eyes and wondering where we took his thread!
    Eh? I've seen worse threaddrift.

    There is a reason they might. Both rail and canal transport are expensive to build, in terms of man hours mostly, but cheap to operate. Roads are also expensive to build, and not cheap to operate. If you're in a place where man hours are cheap...well...what's the downside? (There are a couple, of course. Rail requires a high degree of managerial expertise, discipline, and of societal stability. Hmmm...quick check....hmmm...Zimbabwe: 3 crashes and 105 fatalities in the last seven years. Electrically powered sections turned off in 2008.)

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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kratman View Post
    Eh? I've seen worse threaddrift.
    As have we all I'm sure, but in an RFI thread you can imagine the one doing the requesting watching it drift away and wondering what happened...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kratman View Post
    There is a reason they might. Both rail and canal transport are expensive to build, in terms of man hours mostly, but cheap to operate. Roads are also expensive to build, and not cheap to operate. If you're in a place where man hours are cheap...well...what's the downside? (There are a couple, of course. Rail requires a high degree of managerial expertise, discipline, and of societal stability. Hmmm...quick check....hmmm...Zimbabwe: 3 crashes and 105 fatalities in the last seven years. Electrically powered sections turned off in 2008.)
    Certainly if these trends were directed by rational, conscious decisions there would be incentives to move away from road-based transport... but how often and how successfully have such economic evolutions been directed by rational, conscious decisions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    As have we all I'm sure, but in an RFI thread you can imagine the one doing the requesting watching it drift away and wondering what happened...



    Certainly if these trends were directed by rational, conscious decisions there would be incentives to move away from road-based transport... but how often and how successfully have such economic evolutions been directed by rational, conscious decisions?
    Wait! Wait! It'll come to me.

    Does Henry Morgan sacking Portobello and Panama count?

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    Default Watching from my Aotearoa eyrie

    But busy..
    I've been crashing on completing a couple of chapters - including some of the data that you all have been commenting on. I'm not too worried if the thread drifts a bit when I've already gained a great deal of useful data that I'm still working through.

    But, since you ask..
    Who would be the best guys on the board to ask about general SFA principles, grand strategic, military strategic, operational, and tactical level, from Iraq and Afghanistan? I'm reasonably happy I've got the African side of things on the way to being cleared up, but need input from where the fire's been hottest.

    And what of our Special Forces colleagues who have been doing FID since before it was fashionable? Anybody I should talk to?

    I've learned a great amount and I've really appreciated all the inputs I've got so far.
    Cheers

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Robinson View Post
    But, since you ask..
    Who would be the best guys on the board to ask about general SFA principles, grand strategic, military strategic, operational, and tactical level, from Iraq and Afghanistan?
    Ask and they will come....
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Robinson View Post
    But, since you ask..Who would be the best guys on the board to ask about general SFA principles, grand strategic, military strategic, operational, and tactical level, from Iraq and Afghanistan? I'm reasonably happy I've got the African side of things on the way to being cleared up, but need input from where the fire's been hottest.

    And what of our Special Forces colleagues who have been doing FID since before it was fashionable? Anybody I should talk to?

    I've learned a great amount and I've really appreciated all the inputs I've got so far. Cheers
    Colin,

    There have been several threads on SFA, notably What is Security Force Assistance & What is JCISFA: http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ead.php?t=4997 and there is Security Force Assistance: Roles and Missions for SOF and Conventional Forces ( 1 2 3): http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ead.php?t=5305

    Some of those who have posted may not be regular visitors, so a PM or email maybe required.
    davidbfpo

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