Check my times stated and your times experienced...
The post Viet Nam period was a long peacetime spell where a lot of bad habits grew and DS/DS wasn't long enough to break the cycle.Originally Posted by reed11b
Consider also that given a war, there's less time -- and tolerance -- for mundane BS. I've never seen good NCOs back down from squaring away a troop who needed it regardless of said troops weapons possession. Or said troop's attitude...
Only marginally relevant
but I'll start talking anyhow...
Disclaimer upfront... I'm a retired officer, no prior enlisted time, but grew up learning tough love from father and coaches alike
"smoking sessions" done properly is without a doubt an effective and useful tool. It should not be removed from an NCO's bag of tricks. done poorly, not so much, but it calls into question the qualities of the NCO and not the tool.
That said three short snipets...
1st field exercise after taking command... walking the perimeter with 1SG also new to the battery... three PSG come up and want me to make a decision that had no business making it to top much less me? After a moments thought, I asked "do you really want to invite me that deep into your business? I have no problem making the call on this but you will never get me back out of your business" In the mean time TOP demonstrated his patriotic nature and managed to turn his face red, white, and blue. This is the level of stuff that i think smoking is appropriate...
I'm on a mission to FT Hood (already retired over a year), traffic stops and retreat is played, I like everyone else has stopped to pay respects to the colors, reminds me why I liked being a soldier. After retreat is complete, I turn to reenter my vehicle and I spot an NCO in range walk mode moving towards a bus full of young soldiers in PT gear. He enters the bus, pulls the senior occupant (if I recall a SPC), and delivers an exceptionally loud and detailed description of the SPC's failings as a leader for allowing those in his charge to ignore/play grab a$$ during retreat. God it felt good to be around soliders again and hear a truly professional a$$ chewing...
Last but not least, my daughter received a detention at school for some minor infraction of student handbook. Her basketball team practiced from 0600-0800 each morning. Her detention would be served in the afternoon, but as part of the punishment she was prohibited from participating in practice that morning. I discussed the situation with her coach and mentioned that I thought rather than allowing my daughter to sleep in as a result of acting a fool - it might be better if instead she show up to practice and run bleachers for the duration of practice. I practice what I preach, she learned far better than if she had slept in and done homework in a controlled environment for an hour after school.
Live well and row
Hacksaw
Say hello to my 2 x 4
"smoking" vs "squaring away"
I think that's the crux of the matter. Most "smoking" sessions I have seen have had little to do w/ "squaring" anyone away. Punishments for accidents that the NCO themselves helped to set the conditions for, or minor rule infractions; "HOLY MACKERAL PRIVATE!!! YOUR BOOTLACE IS UNTUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do 100 push-ups for being 8 up!" etc. Most "squaring" away with any sort of dedicated soldier can be done respectfully and verbally. Hey, soldier, you need to tuck in your bootlace. Has anyone shown you how to use a blousing band?" Yes, there are definitely times when an infraction needs serious immediate consequences (i.e. "smoking") but should not result in UCMJ. However, I have seen too many E-5s that arrived at there rank due to having a good PT score and some wrote memorization skills, and think that screaming and yelling = leadership to have the same blind faith that the NCO corp. can self regulate effectively. I have also made soldiers do pushups as a team-leader, before anyone asks; and I will continue to use that particular motivational tool in the future.
Reed
Push-ups are no longer allowed (as 'correctional' of course, rather than PT or sport) in NZ forces. Not PC..............So now they make them do 'up-and-downs'; that'll learn them!
Nothing that results in human progress is achieved with unanimous consent. (Christopher Columbus)
All great truth passes through three stages: first it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
(Arthur Schopenhauer)
ONWARD
Reeed, you obviously had some dealings with some bad
units and NCOs -- or that is beyond overstatement.
It's not blind faith nor is it ten or 12 years experience, it's a lifetime of being, doing and watching. Frankly, those things you cite do not happen in good units. I'm sorry you experienced that and I guess that's where a lot of the negativity comes from but, while certainly such bad incidents have happened in the past, do now and will occur, I contend they're the exception rather than the rule. Supervision is needed, no question. Good NCOs provide it.However, I have seen too many E-5s that arrived at there rank due to having a good PT score and some wrote memorization skills, and think that screaming and yelling = leadership to have the same blind faith that the NCO corp. can self regulate effectively.I've never dropped a man for a pushup nor have I ever seen that as a good tool for much of anything. No number of pushups will clean a dirty weapon or latrine...I have also made soldiers do pushups as a team-leader, before anyone asks; and I will continue to use that particular motivational tool in the future.
ADDED: I flat forbade anyone who worked for me directly to use pushups as a tool and also discouraged it in NCOs who worked in subordinate units by insisting that they get down and knock 'em out one for one with Joe.
Last edited by Ken White; 09-11-2008 at 12:31 AM. Reason: Typo, Addendum
100 push-ups for untucked bootlace would be an exageration but I have had NCO's drop soldiers in my team for 30-50 pushups for BDU chest pocket unbuttoned (soldier took a lot of notes), boot strings untucked and dirty boots. Not ok when you are not the soldiers TL, SL or PltSgt. Correct the soldier and I (as the TL) will determine if more needs to be done. As far as a smoking as soldier for an NCO created situation real life story - In New Orleans after Katrina, a young PFC is told to drive a 5t down a narrow road that had been washed out. PFC states he does not think the truck will make it. E-6 syas just follow me, and leads in Humvee. Shoulder of road gives out under 5t on 5t gets stuck. E6 proceeds to smoke PFC for 2 1/2 hours while waiting for a wrecker. PFC was not in my team but it P.Oed me all to heck when I found out about it anyway. Even when "smoking" is warranted, there is usually another way. Even in the examples given, there were non-humiliation means of addressing the problem. Screaming does not equal leading.
Reed
Like I said, you've got a units you've been in problem...
Sounds like an or some NCOs with too little to do to me. What did you do about it?Agreed.Not ok when you are not the soldiers TL, SL or PltSgt. Correct the soldier and I (as the TL) will determine if more needs to be done.
Generally, it works
NCOs are good at smoking and Soldiers are good at PT. A match made in heaven! OK, just kidding. I'm an prior service officer and was smoked many times as a young Soldier. I deserved every single one.
I will echo the sentiments of others on this thread by saying getting smoked is better than losing pay, doing extra duty or even getting it on paper. That is pretty indisputable.
As a LT, there was only one instance where I had to stop an NCO from a smoke session. It wasn't because it was harsh or anything of that nature, but his timing was terrible. The BDE CDR was giving my BN a "Pep talk" prior to our deployment and this NCO decided that his Soldier nodding off needed some motivation to stay awake. I simply asked him not to interrupt the BDE CDR and wait until he left.
For every 99 NCOs that are mature and competent and would never abuse this type of corrective punishment, there is one who will. That's life. I wouldn't advocate eliminating smoke sessions, because of that.
In regards to COIN, I don't buy the theory that if we smoke our Soldiers, they would in turn treat the HN civs cruely. It comes back to leadership. Soldiers behave and perform primarily based on the conditions established by their leadership, from TL to BN CDR. I saw many Soldiers smoked in OIF for various things go out on missions treat Iraqis with dignity and respect. They were mature enough to make the separation. But then again, our unit had good leaders who fostered and promoted that environment.
Sir, what the hell are we doing?
Leadership techniques have to vary according to circumstance and audience. Mr. Ewing apparently comes from the school that believes 'one size fits all' and that enforcing Army policy trumps leaders employing common sense, military judgment, and effective techniques. My first platoon was filled with poorly-educated, drug-drenched, ambitionless thugs - back in the day when it was nearly impossible to chapter out poor performers. By the time I assumed company command, the majority of those folks were gone, replaced by brighter, better educated troops eager for promotion (God Bless Ronald Reagan). Guess what? We had to use different ways to motivate different kinds of troops.
By the time I assumed battalion command, I had an NCO Corps that had forgotten how to motive the unmotivated - the Army had made getting rid of poor soldiers so easy that working with them (or working them over) was too much trouble. I am glad, in a sense, that the NCOs have rediscovered the wonderful talent for imaginative correction.
I've always thought that the perfect punishment (for me anyways) was walking the area at West Point. It was so humiliating, painful, and utterly pointless that a dozen hours of it was more than enough to motivate me to comply with West Point standards (at least until I was eligible for room con).
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