A civil war in Islam?

[goesh]

I wish it was that simple, Sarejevo

[Sarajevo071]

I wish it was that simple, Sarejevo

But, why not!? Imagine you give people chance to express they feelings and opinions, that they dress how they want (in Turkey), they read and vote for whom they want (in Egypt), to vote for whom they want-with consequences that they will suffer but also they can change them (in Palestine, SA, Morocco)…

Do you really believe that majority of Muslim populous will choose Taliban/AQ style regimes!? Do you have problem with Malaysia style Islamic governance or policy toward West? They are way to progressive and open minded, technology advanced and economical stabile to be rogue or not to work with West.

US (wrong) policy of support WRONG governments, leaders and, yes, countries in the Middle East (including racist and apartheid Israel) creating way to much instability and enemies of West then what you will have with reverse politics. You take away major grievances in today Islamic word (they are not to many) and you will more then half battle with Islamic extremisms and you win over AQ.

My firm beliefs is that majority of Muslim are NOT pro Taliban style regimes and AQ (sharia based law don’t need to be that harsh or bad) but they are anti- US imperialism, war against Islam and support of evil and regimes cause of oil and weapons market dominance (from South America, thru Africa and ME all the way to Asia).

I just finished reading “The Redirection” by Seymour M. Hersh (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...5fa_fact_hersh ) and ”The Bush Administration’s New Strategy of Setting the Middle East Aflame” by Peter Symonds (http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/02/363798.html ) and if you didn’t read them yet, I recommended… If all said is true, we are in way of much worst times and troubles then majority of us was thinking.

If you get around to read that, please tell me what you think.

[goesh]

I think Islam and Democracy are not compatible for a number of reasons. First and foremost, the Divine cannot be sorted and kept secondary to the mundane management of human affairs in Islam and we are inhabiting a planet fully diversified in its ontological perceptions and interpretations. Islam cannot accord full equal status to non-Muslims, particularily the polytheists, agnostics and atheists. Islam can peacfully cohabit the planet with said folks, until Islam perceives said folks and their religious views are influencing resource allocation. The same can be said of Christianity but internally we do keep the Religious pretty much out of politics. I would reference in particular the Judge in Alabama , I think that was the state, who was kicked off the bench for putting the 10 Commandments in a court house as but one recent example of this.

Secondly, Islam has yet to accord equal status to half its population, the females. That does not bode well for reconciliation and compatibility on a global scale where Western democracies are major players. We quit burning witches 400 years ago. Honor killings and clitorectomy are serious, unresolved issues that intelligent men in the Islamic world have not been able to resolve. Beyond that, there issues of voting, equal civic participation, driving cars, resource management that are not resolved.

Thirdly, for every imperialist move the US makes, the Islamic world makes its own moves to sustain its status quo. The flare-ups we are seeing in N. Africa are a result of the pending withdrawl from Iraq, not the invasion. You may as well be talking to a dead squirrel as to convince me to the contrary. I've got a crisp C note that says an ideological/IO assault is about to commence on Jordan, followed by some direct action. It's what I would do if I were in their camp.

Do I think most Muslims want Sharia Law in their lives? No, of course I don't but with rigid paternalism, no income tax, rampant tribalism, inequality of the sexes and 1400 yr. old Divine Will at the helm and no historical backdrop, it's a long hump with a full pack to creating your own Ben Franklins, George Washingtons and Thomas Jeffersons. I want peace and I fear the hideous things we will have to do to win if it comes down to an ultimate clash of civilizations.

[Sarajevo071]

Well, how much I agree with you in some stuff you said here that much (maybe even more) I couldn’t. There are plenty examples in history of Muslims living peacefully with non-Muslims, they rights was protected and accepted; women are not humiliated and put down how much West trying to portrait them, nor is true that they have no rights, in some cases even more then man; voting and democracy are not so alien to Islam and with some modification in system it could be easy implemented in they life style…

For all other things you mention here, goesh (honor killings, clitorectomy, voting, equal civic participation, driving cars, rigid paternalism, no income tax, rampant tribalism, inequality of the sexes) I can only repeat myself from before… These are different examples from different countries (not ALL is present in ALL Islamic countries proving my point that all of that is NOT common to Islam) and those examples are related to TRIBAL, primitive and old customs and NOT based on Islam or Quran.

I understand your bias (maybe even hate) but you are basing all that on WRONG perception of what Islam is, repeating all those wrong, non-Islamic things like excuse and shield in your crusade… You are free to prove me wrong if you can find examples/rulings/laws in Islam on all those backward, stupid, evil and bad things you mention. You will not. You will find examples of tribal, local customs creping in what they think is Islam. You know, Muslims themselves fighting those issues & problems.

You have totally different behaviors in different Muslims countries that prove that is not Islamic way. I could go in details, give you examples and try to find answers for you, but you all ready said: “You may as well be talking to a dead squirrel as to convince me to the contrary”, so there is no purpose. And since you think that this are ”serious, unresolved issues that intelligent men in the Islamic world have not been able to resolve” I am not sure what I am even trying to do here?!

So, let me stop here and go in my “corner” and silently disagree since I think I know you are wrong and you will never be able to find solutions, answers and peace with “other side” that way.


I wish you well,
goesh

[goesh]

Our dialouge typifies the cultural incongruence that is manifesinting in spilled blood all over the planet. To quote from the Sufi Poet Rumi:

"Lord, said David, since you do not need us,
why did you create these two worlds?"

We both are probably not quite what and who we appear to be here and I think we can both agree that it is a good day to die, so there can then be peace too, somehow, but if I and my kind are bound only by honor and blood to the Laws of our nation and the men of AQ by honor and blood are bound only to Allah, who is to mediate and who can convince us of their worthiness to be heard and heeded? The merchants? The women? The children? The Poets? The Priests and Imams? The wretched politicians? ...?

[Sarajevo071]

I get what you saying… I think the best example of that “difference” would be most recent developments in Iraq and fight between AQ and IAI where first not wish to negotiate peace and former is open to peace dialog... And then let other Muslims to take care of AQ.

Also, (interesting info) one of the plotters of the first WTC attack, when ask with what kind of US government he will be ok to talk/made peace, he said basically that if U.S.A. have religious rulers they will find way for peace and talks!? True? Who knows?

(I am paraphrasing here from memory, but if you are interested to know exact quote and title of book I can give you tonight when I get home.)


P.S.
Rumi is cool but to much of lover and not enough of warrior.

[goesh]

This old hillbilly only knows that the giant that went back to sleep on 9/2/45 has been kicked awake again.


"The one You kill,
Lord,
Does not smell of blood,
And the one You burn
Does not reek of smoke.

He You burn laughs as he burns
And the one You kill,
As You kill him,
Cries out in ecstasy."
(Sheikh Ansari)


That's a two-way street, hoss. The principle ideological failure of the jihadist is in fully comprhending our history, that death at the personal level often becomes secondary, even irrelevant, to completing the mission, where duty and honor supplant Divine Will.