The Decline in America's Reputation: Why?

[Sargent]

Stevely wrote: How would that work, exactly? I am not sure if that is a helpful way of thinking of the problem.

It's a philosophical answer to Ken's question. If you have a child, and that child goes off the rails, do you stop loving that child? You may realize and acknowledge the errors, but you don't stop loving the child, you don't renounce him, you don't abandon him. The UN was our idea, we brought it into this world, we believed it in it, and we worked very hard to get the other states of the world to believe in it as well. It would be petty to forsake it because it hasn't become exactly what we want. If we believe it has gone wrong, then we must work to reform it. But again, even if we can't, go back and read my second paragraph - for the pragmatic reason that the small and weak states of the world believe in it it is valuable.

Regards,
Jill

[Uboat509]

It's a philosophical answer to Ken's question. If you have a child, and that child goes off the rails, do you stop loving that child? You may realize and acknowledge the errors, but you don't stop loving the child, you don't renounce him, you don't abandon him. The UN was our idea, we brought it into this world, we believed it in it, and we worked very hard to get the other states of the world to believe in it as well. It would be petty to forsake it because it hasn't become exactly what we want. If we believe it has gone wrong, then we must work to reform it.

Unfortunately, that child is now a smelly unemployed adult who still lives over the garage. He raids the fridge, borrows money, and argues a lot but constributes almost nothing other than dirty laundry. Plus, he has been hanging out with some pretty unsavory people lately. Still loving him is fine but it might be time for some tough love.

SFC W

[Ken White]

I think uboat's got it right. Having been 1/3 of a typical two parent American family (My wife gets two votes to my one... ) I can attest to the difficulties of a twosome determining disciplinary efforts for a recalcitrant kid.

The UN has five parents with veto authority and generally two of whom will disagree with the others just for GP. That makes disciplinary decisions almost impossible...

I can love the kid in the garage but I don't have to like her and I have to acknowledge that my enabling her is detrimental to the kid herself. It does little good if I cut off her ability to get to the refrigerator and my wife is sneaking her food. Of course, my wife refuses to buy her anything so I have to slip her a few bucks every now and then...

Yep, I can love her -- but I don't have to like her and I can have lost my respect for her. I probably won't gain that back until she develops some self respect...

Sigh. Being a parent isn't easy.

[Stevely]

It's a philosophical answer to Ken's question. If you have a child, and that child goes off the rails, do you stop loving that child? You may realize and acknowledge the errors, but you don't stop loving the child, you don't renounce him, you don't abandon him. The UN was our idea, we brought it into this world, we believed it in it, and we worked very hard to get the other states of the world to believe in it as well. It would be petty to forsake it because it hasn't become exactly what we want. If we believe it has gone wrong, then we must work to reform it. But again, even if we can't, go back and read my second paragraph - for the pragmatic reason that the small and weak states of the world believe in it it is valuable.

Regards,
Jill

I don't think it's appropriate to anthropomorphize the problem like this. I would always love my child, regardless of how bad he went, because that's a natural and normal response of a parent for his child. The child is flesh of my flesh, after all. But the relationship between a nation of 300 million people and the international organization it helped found a couple of generations ago is far too abstract for feelings like that, there is nothing actually there to love. It is a mistake to treat organizations as if they were people, they exist only to serve people, so the feelings should be directed to those the organization serve. Thus an organization can and should be scrapped, bent, radically reformed, and so on for the sake of the served if the situation requires it. It's just a tool, really. Directing affection to a tool is misplaced, and may only end up doing no service to the people the tool was supposed to help.

Yes, it would be great to reform it, but UN reforms have never gone anywhere in the 60+ years of its existence. What happens when reform doesn't work out? I am also skeptical about its value to the many and weak states of the world - who is it really valuable to, the downtrodden and suffering who make up the bulk of the people in those states, or the kleptocrats who lord it over them? I am not calling for it to be disbanded or for us to withdraw, it probably still useful on the balance, but I would never regard it now as anything other than something we stay in for cold, pragmatic reasons, it is long since ceased to be anything like noble, really it's just a den of corruption.

[JQP]

I have no fondness for the UN. I agree with most of you that it is inept, ineffective, costly and corrupt but I don't think we can abandon it either. We do need some type of international framework with which to build diplomatic relationships and create agreements. So- do we focus our energies on reforming the UN? Or do we create a "coalition of the willing" each time we need some type of multi-national assistance? Do we make NATO our main diplomatic framework? Or do we create something like a "League of Democracies"?

[Ken White]

abandon it; if we didn't have it we'd have to invent it.

My vote would be to work for reform; I think the elevating NATO or the League of Democracies options would be counterproductive. Coalitions will be necessary in the near term and possibly always for some things; you're never going to get that many voting members to agree on much.

Reform will take years -- thus, it would seem to me we need a long term plan that will take several US administrations to bring to fruition.

Yo, State -- you got the lead.

[Uboat509]

I also agree that we shouldn't abandon the UN. It does do some things really well, sort of like a really expensive NGO. And the concept is not without merit but we definitely need to lower our expectations, a lot. We have enough trouble building building a consensus for anything we do domestically. Trying to build a consensus on anything with France, China and Russia is probably a bridge too far(three of them actually). The sooner people realize that the better it will be for everyone involved.

SFC W