What is presence patrolling?

[Ken White]

But i guess the main problem I have with this is the lie that the enemy casualties can not be estimated. Why do the Brits try to lie their way out of a Freedom of Information Request? (Not only that but they are actually breaking their own law.)

Have no knowledge of or concern with British law, I'm not British. As to the estimate, it may be a lie, may not be -- it could be that some PR flack misspoke, could be that it's a cover for the real policy. Hard to say. The answers to many of your questions are hazy as I'm sure you know and while those answers are important to the people actually concerned they become of merely academic interest to people on discussion board that are not going to change the policies of any government.

What could be more subversive as asking for the enemy casualty figures, do I hear you ask?

No, you do not hear me ask. It's not subversive but it also has little relevance to most people so one could assume that anyone with no vested interest who made an issue of it had some arcane point to make.

What on earth has the 24 hr burial requirement got to do with anything...so what relevance has it?

Depends on the action, immediate sweeps cannot always be conducted and later assessments of air strikes or artillery are often at the outer limit of that time. Plus there's the fact that the Talibs -- most area forces -- collect bodies and casualties and haul them off if possible specifically to deny the count for several reasons, not least so they can downplay there casualties while inflating ANA / ANP and coalition casualties in their videos and on their web sites.

... which leaves one to think only of the worst.

Depends on ones inclination, I believe. You can do that it you wish and you obviously do.

Nowhere have I said that body count was unimportant.

Nor did I say you had done so.

Ken, rule number for moderators should be not to take cheap shots.

If you'll check my responses to you over the past few months, you'll see the majority are civil. Not warm but civil. I have told you on a couple of occasions that you are pushing things with your attitude and idle harassment. That comment you quoted was not what you apparently think it was.

Sorry you think it a cheap shot -- I very much disagree and think it an accurate assessment. It was not a cheap shot -- it was a warning.

Either way, it will not deter me as a Moderator from reacting to your tendency to be deliberately abrasive all too often, to make assertions that make adverse implications and to employ innuendo for whatever purpose you deem to be that critical.

...RLI fire force at the height of the war 84%. Can you venture a guess as to why this stat may be significant?

Don't need to guess, I know. It was important to you because you were there, it was important to Rhodesia due to the relative numbers on both sides and it is important as a statistic because it applies to one war in one nation at one time. Can Fire Force tactics be replicated in, say, Afghanistan today? No. Therefor it may be important but it is also irrelevant to this thread except as a point scoring rhetorical trick.

You make valid points and you -- and many of us -- have valid complaints about governmental and senior leader failures. No doubt error and failures occur daily. Comments about those are welcome, hopefully they will be civil comments and not accusations disguised a 'opinions' with no discernible basis of whatever malfeasance they might indicate.

However, you generally refuse to accept the political constraints that both we and the British are forced to accommodate, you constantly ask others to do research which you could do yourself, you make continual accusations and you are quite adept at pushing the envelope on civility. You attempt to be deliberately provocative, perhaps to foster discussion, but you appear to several here to overdo that. If you're smart enough to do that, you're smart enough to not do it to score your many cheap shots IMO on a recurring basis.

Do not misunderstand that sentence above. It is not a cheap shot at you -- It is a warning to clean up your act, keep the snide comments to a minimum, avoid making sweeping allegations based on your opinions as opposed to facts and behave with a little more civility.

You've proven quite capable of making informed sensible and civil comment, I hope you continue to do so

[JMA]

Thanks for those kind words Ken, I'll take them under advisement

[davidbfpo]

I am mindful that this thread has started to "loiter and engage" on the concept of Fire Force and whether it is applicable today. So I have started a new thread in the OEF - Afghan chapter, called 'Moving the Fire Force concept to Afghanistan' and will remove the latest relevant post here to there.

Apologies if the debate appears to have hit a "brick wall". A Moderators Note will be added. Patience too as some domestic distractions.