That sounds a whole lot like the quote attributed to Churchill, “Americans will always do the right thing, after they have tried everything else.”Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
That sounds a whole lot like the quote attributed to Churchill, “Americans will always do the right thing, after they have tried everything else.”
If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)
That's why the Army has a COIN FM. But it did not work in Iraq and I hear no questioning of that failure that would reflect they are trying everything else.
How about Indonesia?
Ray
Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world. How does it fit in with your theory about Muslim countries?
Collapse ahead?
Outlaw09 has posted on the potential for Iraqi state forces giving up. Just spitted on Twitter:Very short video of along column of men walking along a highway, very lightly guarded:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0sa9...ature=youtu.beNew vid of 1000s of Iraqsoldiers in Tikrit captured by ISIS. Acc to ISIS, nb of prisoners is 4500...(in a comment) tw most of these captured ones are from shia milita Asab el haqq
I do wonder what these prisoners life chances are.
davidbfpo
Why is ISIS hated?
A different viewpoint:Certainly bitter about ISIS and commends Kurdish capabilities to expel ISIS from urban areas. Also refers to the curious "hands off" stance by Assad's regime. Judge for yourself:http://adandachi.com/istanbul/isis-mosul-raqqa/Aboud Dandachi is an activist from the Syrian city of Homs, currently residing in Istanbul. He has been cited on issues relating to the Syrian conflict in the BBC, NPR, LA Times, the Guardian, Al-Arabiya and Turkiye Gazetesi.
davidbfpo
Same argument made about Catholics
Carl not so long ago there was a similar theory about Catholics. It was said that because they followed the Pope who is like a king Catholics could not become democrats. This was once used in a theory to explain why there were so many dictatorships in Latin America. The argument went that because they were Catholics they always gravitated towards a Jefe, strongman because they followed the Pope. In fact that was also an argument against the election of John Kennedy. There was a political cartoon against him that said if elected there would be a tunnel from the White House to Vatican City and Kennedy would be taking direct orders from the Pope.
iraq Update
Iraqi forces retook Baiji in Salahaddin. Early reports that the refinery and power station outside the city being taken were incorrect. Baghdad has sent special forces towards Mosul. Tikrit was taken by ISIS, attempt to re-take it by ISF failed. ISIS launched another assault upon Samarra in Salahaddin but were repulsed. Peshmerga has deployed outside of Mosul, moved into some of the disputed territories in Diyala and occupied Kirkuk city. Yesterday was the first time there were reports in the Iraqi press that the ISF was fighting back.
Also don't forget that there is massive militia mobilization and Iran is moving into Iraq big time.
David--guessing not high because ISIS does not have a Geneva C track record with Shia prisoners or Awakening prisoners since 2004.
Have to many beheading videos in my research records that indicates they never change.
They too have had an 'iron hand' given their history.
However, it is interesting to note that their currency carries the image of 'Ganesha' a Hindu idol.
That is blasphemy in Islam!
This has to be a record in the history of jail breaks---in just three days ISIS has attacked prisons located in the various cities they have attacked freeing an estimated 4500 prisoners-- many who were former Sunni insurgents from the various Sunni groups especially from the former IAI and Ansar al Sunnah.
The Ghost Of Colonel Warden!
No more Boots On The Ground....time for Wings On Our Feet.
Maybe we will finally learn we are an Airpower nation! We have known that since the 1950's for theses situations it is best to use our Airpower(to include SF/CIA advisors) and there Boots if you want to win.
Ray since 1998 when Suharto stepped down have you seen any of these turn to a strongman tendencies in Indonesia that you say are inherent in Muslim culture?They too have had an 'iron hand' given their history.
However, it is interesting to note that their currency carries the image of 'Ganesha' a Hindu idol.
That is blasphemy in Islam!
Militias & Iran are back in Iraq
Outlaw 09
Many of the Iraqi militiamen who were fighting in Syria were shifted back to Iraq months ago. Militias have already been fighting insurgents in Fallujah, Abu Ghraib and parts of Diyala. Early this morning Hakim said that he was sending Supreme Council fighters to support the Defense Ministry. Sadr said he supported people protecting the Shiite shrines which would obviously include Samarra in Salahaddin. IRGC Quds Force Cmdr Gen. Suleimani is in Baghdad right now. They are all gearing up to fight the insurgents started from Samarra down to Baghdad.
Syria not Shiite
Outlaw 09
Assad is an Alawite and despite press reports that is not Shiite. That's like saying Shiite are really Sunnis because they are just an offshoot. Syria was also one of the main supporters of the insurgency for years so saying that Shiite rule in Iraq after 03 created this united Shiite arc from Iran to Iraq to Syria is incorrect. Maliki only decided to back Assad when the civil war started and Islamists started fighting the government. Maliki hated Assad but made an alliance of convenience because ISIS and others were seen as worse, Enemy of my enemy stuff going on.
Just think - Iranian Quds troops could be fighting to gain control of terrain in Iraq with air support provided by US Drones.
"I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."
Jon Osterman/Dr. Manhattan
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Just a note on Indonesia, and even Malaysia. The SEA region was under Hindu influence for centuries long before Islam was born, or even before Christianity was born. The influence can still be seen: the national airlines Garuda, is named after a creature from Hindu mythology. Bali is still Hindu majority. In comparison, the various brands of Islam (and the so-called Muslim culture) in the region, is more diluted than what is found elsewhere.
Other factors to consider in terms of the power structure within countries in the region. Ethnic Chinese or their descendents who intermarried locally, control the vast majority of the business interested throughout Indonesia (and Thailand). The economic control of the Chinese minority is lesser in Malaysia and Philippines, but their slice of the economic pie is far larger than what their portion of the population might suggest. The Chinese minority originate from the southern Chinese coast, descendents of labourers and businessmen. By and large, few of them converted to Islam.
Historically and till today, the Indonesian archipelago is dominated by Java, the most populous and richest island. The popular perception is that the Javanese are business at heart, no doubt due to the region's geography and trade (namely spice, historically) passing through the region. Due to Java being the center of power, the Javanese arts and culture is generally viewed as the most refined.
From my point of view, the need for a strongman in Indonesia is more about suppressing regionalism (eg. Aceh) for economic reasons, than about one group/ tribe proving their point over another.
What does JPEL mean?
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
Indonesia is uniquely different.
It is because of the unique syncretic mix of culture, they being Santri, Abagan and Priyayi.
Santri is the practice of orthodox Islam, who are basically urban and who go to the Mosque, read the Quar'an and follow Sharia.
The Abagan tend to be rural people who have absorbed both the Hindu and Muslim ways and are sort of animist, if you will, and who follow folk tradition, to include beliefs that centres on spirits, magic, and the ceremonial feast or salametan .
The Priyayi are those who follow Hindu Javanese traditions.
Indonesia's political history would give an idea of how Indonesia functions and why it is different.
The Santri played a the key role in Indonesian Nationalist movements, and formed the strongest opposition to President Suharto's New Order army-based administration.
In contrast, the Abangan have tended to follow the prevailing political wind; they supported Sukarno's overt nationalism, while during Suharto's subsequent presidency, they loyally voted for his Golkar party. Poorer Abangan areas became strongholds of the Indonesian Communist Party (PKI) in stark opposition to the orthodox Muslim Santri. The cultural divisions descended into bloody conflict in 1965/66 when Santri were opposed to communists, many of whom were from Abangan streams.
For further details, see
Elections and Politics in Indonesia
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=k...ed=0CDYQ6AEwBw
SANTRI - ABANGAN DICHOTOMY IN TODAY INDONESIA: RECONSIDERED
http://sudirmansetiono.blogspot.in/2...-in-today.html
Totally agree to the comments--a whole different world developed there and could if needed be a model for the ME ethnic groups if they wanted a model which they do not currently want.
Yes, Indonesia is uniquely different. Just like every other country.
If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)
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