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Thread: Corrective Training vs Punishment

  1. #1
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Corrective Training vs Punishment

    Scott Andrew Ewing's article on "smoke sessions" is thought provoking and damning. Should set off some riots in the NCO corps.

    My first reaction was negative, and then I re-read the article and had to give credit - the author has done his homework and made his case well, whether we fully agree with the practical effect of his conclusion. I will be interested to see the reactions in the NCO Corps. I thought the relation to COIN was a small stretch, but the overall paper is concise and well argued.

    Just as comanders are responsible for the climate in their units,
    so the Army as an institution is responsible for the moral climate it fosters.
    In this article, I will outline some of the contradictions and ambiguities
    in Army regulations (ARs) and field manuals (FMs) that make it difficult for
    leaders to understand the distinction between corrective training and punishment.

    I will argue that ARs, case law, the Office of the Inspector General,
    and higher-echelon commanders have, nonetheless, made it clear that such
    a distinction exists and must be respected. Failure to recognize and respect
    this distinction can and often does lead to illegal abuses of authority. These
    abuses of authority within the Army’s ranks, and the cultural undercurrents
    that condone these patterns of behavior, cripple efforts to wage an effective
    counterinsurgency (COIN) campaign by fostering a mentality of paternalistic
    tyranny rather than good stewardship. The moral implications of this mentality
    are neither consistent nor compatible with counterinsurgency doctrine,


    .... an NCO who orders a Soldier to perform duties that are tantamount to punishment is giving an unlawful order.

    ...

    My view is that commanders and NCOs are in some sense victims of a system that is highly resistant to change. I understand that it is difficult within the system to go against accepted cultural norms, but that is precisely why Army culture needs to be fundamentally changed and such changes subsequently supported at all levels.

    There are three correlates with the assertions I have made thus far:

    *The U.S. Army is culturally handicapped in its ability to occupy Iraq in a humane manner. The systemic acceptance of such illegal practices as “smoke
    sessions” is part of a mind-set that has crippled our attempts to implement effective counterinsurgency campaigns.

    *The regulations surrounding corrective training, punishment, and “smoke sessions” are confusing and need to be rewritten.

    *The problem must first be fully understood by high-ranking officers. To this end, the Army ought to investigate this matter in a substantive way, and encourage Soldiers to candidly testify about these practices without fear of reprisal or prosecution.
    Last edited by Jedburgh; 09-05-2008 at 07:34 PM. Reason: Added link.
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  2. #2
    Council Member reed11b's Avatar
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    Fantastic Article! Thank you for the link. I don't agree with it 100% but I think his main point is correct. I would also add that micro-management leads to reduced soldier initiative and moral. Worst I ever saw was a Quartermaster SM have a soldier hold a sign saying "No sunglasses may be worn on the head in chow hall" from an infantry unit. Did he have the right to tell the soldier to take them off his head? Yes, but not to initiate humiliation punishment for a soldier not in his unit while deployed in theatre! Nothing like CSM's in combat with nothing better to do then enforce uniform policy. How much was that uniform inspector paid compared to the soldier he corrected? I better step of my soapbox and take a tranquilizer.
    Reed

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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    I've never been a big fan of externally applied discipline, or motivation.

    Frankly, nothing beats internal discipline/motivation, and I believe the job of each and every leader is to develop that internal discipline/motivation in their subordinates.

    Peer pressure and leading by example are two very good ways to do this, as is finding and developing an individuals' strengths, and putting them in a position to maximize those strengths in a way that benefits the organization.

    I just departed a Reserve unit where I was "counselled" and "disciplined" as an O-5, for nonperformance, while I repeatedly attempted to leave the unit because I simply didn't have the time to contribute in the way they wanted me to.

    I am now an extremely high performing member of another Reserve unit, doing the exact same thing I was supposed to do at the last unit. The primary difference is that the current chain of command listened to what I was saying, and was willing to work with me.

    I like to refer to it as the "Dennis Rodman Effect". If you have a square peg, you can do everything you can to get it to fit in that round hole, or you can find a square hole it fits in.

    Unfortunately, there is a strong tendency in the military to attack the square pegs because they are not round, and then whine and bitch (or lie) because there is nothing to fill the square holes with.

    edited to add: Humiliation and inappropriate forms of punishment can contribute to soldiers "taking it out on" the population in a COIN fight. The example of the article of "smoking" soldiers for missing formation is counterproductive.
    Last edited by 120mm; 09-07-2008 at 10:49 PM.

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    The most effective form of "external" discipline I ever saw, was by a CSM I had the honour to serve with who, if you were dressed improperly, for example, said "Go and change into civilian clothes. You can't be trusted to wear the uniform properly." On another occasion, when a soldier couldn't keep up on a not very demanding march, he assigned the man two men to help him carry his Bergen. - and they were to do so, whenever a tactical move was in progress. In fact, his whole attitude was to exclude men who could not perform. Shame, not humiliation, was and is the key. Men very much feared being excluded. I used the same basic approach when I was an NCO, and it worked. Boots not clean? Go and get your training shoes.

    The most extreme example I ever heard of, was apparently the same CSM, actually sent two men on leave. "Go home. You're useless." I am not saying this is a complete cure, but it worked in a volunteer Army. I only ever saw this approach once, and IMO, it worked.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

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    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
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  5. #5
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Several thoughts on 'Smoking.'

    First, it's cyclical. Every war brings an increase in such events. By 1958, the practice was dying down in the Army; Viet Nam brought it back. Transition to the All Volunteer Force dropped it, the Gulf War and the movement of many Ranger qualified NCOs to even non-airborne units from Ranger units (where the practice has a life of its own) increased it. Hopefully, it'll again subside. It does need some local control.

    Second; it's needed to an extent -- but sensibly. Officers do not need to do everything and a lot of stuff doesn't rise to the Article 15 level -- particularly when you're going to throw out perfectly good soldiers or Marines (or Sailors or Airmen; even Coasties...) who have a couple. I kept a kid in the barracks for 75 days once, totally illegal but it kept a good troop from getting a career ending Court Martial. So you need to have the capability and it doesn't need to be too finely delineated. That said, it does need careful watching by the senior NCOs and Officers in the Chain of Command. Make no mistake, either they know it happens and are ignoring it -- unless it gets out of hand or to prevent it from getting there -- or they shouldn't have their ranks...

    Thirdly, the institution should acknowledge the practice (not codify it) and train the junior NCOs about what's acceptable and what is not (Noting that Congress passes the laws and is responsible for a lot of regulatory word smithing -- they're the ones that took NCOs out of the picture legally...).

    We made a bad mistake in 1776 when Washington hired Von Steuben -- the Indian method of training Braves was far better, mentoring and no hectoring.

    Still, combat does take a certain toughness and a certain amount of harassment in training is desirable; one should be careful not to eliminate everything, just pare the excesses -- which do occur -- and train people better.

    A general comment on his article, I don't disagree with much of it and do agree that he cites some incidents that were overboard. However, his conclusions
    "●●The U.S. Army is culturally handicapped in its
    ability to occupy Iraq in a humane manner. The systemic
    acceptance of such illegal practices as “smoke
    sessions” is part of a mind-set that has crippled our
    attempts to implement effective counterinsurgency
    campaigns.
    ●● The regulations surrounding corrective training,
    punishment, and “smoke sessions” are confusing
    and need to be rewritten.
    ●●The problem must first be fully understood
    by high-ranking officers. To this end, the Army
    ought to investigate this matter in a substantive
    way, and encourage Soldiers to candidly testify
    about these practices without fear of reprisal or
    prosecution."
    are, IMO, overkill. He's, it seems, taken a personal hangup and elevated to a massive diatribe. As to his conclusion themselves:

    I have no doubt that the first has some validity but my suspicion the effect described is a significant overstatement.

    I strongly disagree with the second; the army doesn't need idle and unnecessary harassment -- it needs more bureaucracy even less.

    I disagree with the third; He's cited a problem (and at GREAT length, I might add...) -- good for him . However he's elevating it way out of proportion. All that's required is common sense, an acknowledgment of what's need, training -- and supervision.
    Last edited by Ken White; 09-08-2008 at 05:15 PM. Reason: Numerous minor corrections with no change of thrust - it was late

  6. #6
    Council Member Anthony Hoh's Avatar
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    Default An honest, although politically incorrect answer

    I read the article and agree with other comments that it is well written and researched.
    That said IMO the article itself is misguided. I got the impression that the author felt NCO's run smoke sessions on a whim outside thier inherent authority or justification. Looking at the time he spent in service (listed in the notes on the article, I think it was a four year enlistment) I doubt he got that far in the ranks, I dont say that as a slight, I say that to highlight the limited perspective one Soldier gets in one unit for four years. Is the line between on the spot corrections/ additional training blurry... sure. But I have never run a smoke session because I was bored or though it was funny, or out of an obligation to generations of Soldiers before me. I do it to maintain discipline and ultimately because I care for the troops in my charge. (sorry ,if that sounds dramatic but from my foxhole it is true). Giving a physical challenge to my Soldiers in lieu of UCMJ is a lot like correcting my own children. I don’t want to do it, I love and care for them both, but it is necessary for their development, and in my mind looks out more for their welfare in both cases.

    For example:

    You have a young Soldier E-1/E-4 who leaves his weapon at a training site. Should I recommend UCMJ punishment? Okay, he is 21 married with two kids, what am I signing him up for? He loses pay, so he can’t meet financial obligations without the embarrassing process of AER and ACS loans and grants. Not to mention the time lost by his Squad Leader and PSG in Trial Defense Service appt's., loan application forms, and “special time" with the Commander and 1SG. The Soldier also loses time with his family as he performs extra duty.

    Or, should I disassemble his weapon, giving one piece to each NCO in the platoon. The Soldier accepts a physical challenge from each NCO as he reassembles his weapon piece by piece, painful...yes, but he won’t forget his weapon again, plus it still serves as a reminder to other Soldiers who witness that proper accountability for equipment is important.

    If I received UCMJ every time I stepped on my own crank while growing up in the Army I would probably still have not received a pay check (16 years later), and might find the need to extend my term of service to complete my extra duty! I needed discipline.

    Thankfully I had NCO's who smoked the ever living crap out of me, when I screwed up. As I went to the promotion board for SSG I had no blemishes on my records of recorded UCMJ proceedings.

    Soon technology will not be able to overcome the soft underbelly of the Nintendo generation

    Somebody needs to give responsible tough love, if you don’t have the cajones to do it, or that hurts your sense of morality/justice then kindly step aside.
    Last edited by Anthony Hoh; 09-10-2008 at 08:28 AM. Reason: Typing with mittens!/ changed some absolutes for wiggle room.

  7. #7
    Council Member Uboat509's Avatar
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    This article does a pretty good job of highlighting a significant problem the Army has. Unfortunately, it is not the one the author was trying to highlight. It is the annoying tendency of the Army to misidentify a problem or to overreact to a problem. In this article it is an issue of,there are individuals abusing a given system so therefore the solution must be to change the system. That way the few individuals who are abusing the system can no longer abuse it nor can the majority who were not abusing it use it either. This is a particular pet peeve of mine. This is why we have clearing barrels outside of all of out buildings in Iraq and Afghanistan, because it is easier to to simply take the bullets away then to ensure that our soldiers can safely carry a weapon (warrior ethos my @#$).

    This article may be well argued from a legal stand-point, as far as what reg says what but it does little to deal with the realities of day to day operations. First, "smoke sessions" work. They can be an extremely effective tool. The author never even addresses that fact, preferring to reference a few egregious examples of abuse of the system in a transparent attempt to paint the whole system as corrupt. Is this tool appropriate for every situation? Of course not. There are no one size fits all solutions out there, and we all know that but there are plenty of situations out there where it is appropriate, such as the example Anthony pointed out. There is also what I take to be an elitist undertone throughout this article. There is an implication that NCOs are either too prone to abuse to be able use this system effectively or are too uneducated (I found this statement to be particularly offensive, If smoke sessions are to be prohibited, they should be prohibited explicitly, using the vernacular of the enlisted Soldiers to whom these issues are relevant. "You gots to dumb it down for them enlisted guys or they won't git it.") Bottom line, NCOs are expected to keep order and discipline but they need effective tools to do so and "you do what I tell you or I'm going to go run and get an officer," is not one of those tools.

    SFC W

  8. #8
    Council Member reed11b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    First, it's cyclical. Every war brings an increase in such events. By 1958, the practice was dying down in the Army; Viet Nam brought it back. Transition to the All Volunteer Force dropped it, the Gulf War and the movement of many Ranger qualified NCOs to even non-airborne units from Ranger units (where the practice has a life of its own) increased it. Hopefully, it'll again subside. It does need some local control.
    Ironically my experience is exactly the opposite. During peace-time, the wannabe Rangers and wound-too-tight-around-the-axles NCO’s overused “smoking” and public humiliation for minor infringements on regs. During war-time, the wannabes were not so gung-ho to harass a soldier w/ a loaded weapon and the wound-tight-around-the-axles NCO’s were either in hot water w/ command or had been sent home. I wonder if a focus on actual leadership ability for promotion to sergeant would help. Knowing weapon’s ranges and weights and nomenclatures are important, but that should be a requirement for promotion to E-2/3/4 not to NCO. Just a thought,
    Reed

  9. #9
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Check my times stated and your times experienced...

    Quote Originally Posted by reed11b View Post
    Ironically my experience is exactly the opposite. During peace-time, the wannabe Rangers and wound-too-tight-around-the-axles NCO’s overused “smoking” and public humiliation for minor infringements on regs. During war-time, the wannabes were not so gung-ho to harass a soldier w/ a loaded weapon and the wound-tight-around-the-axles NCO’s were either in hot water w/ command or had been sent home.
    The post Viet Nam period was a long peacetime spell where a lot of bad habits grew and DS/DS wasn't long enough to break the cycle.

    Consider also that given a war, there's less time -- and tolerance -- for mundane BS. I've never seen good NCOs back down from squaring away a troop who needed it regardless of said troops weapons possession. Or said troop's attitude...

  10. #10
    Council Member Hacksaw's Avatar
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    Default Only marginally relevant

    but I'll start talking anyhow...

    Disclaimer upfront... I'm a retired officer, no prior enlisted time, but grew up learning tough love from father and coaches alike

    "smoking sessions" done properly is without a doubt an effective and useful tool. It should not be removed from an NCO's bag of tricks. done poorly, not so much, but it calls into question the qualities of the NCO and not the tool.

    That said three short snipets...

    1st field exercise after taking command... walking the perimeter with 1SG also new to the battery... three PSG come up and want me to make a decision that had no business making it to top much less me? After a moments thought, I asked "do you really want to invite me that deep into your business? I have no problem making the call on this but you will never get me back out of your business" In the mean time TOP demonstrated his patriotic nature and managed to turn his face red, white, and blue. This is the level of stuff that i think smoking is appropriate...

    I'm on a mission to FT Hood (already retired over a year), traffic stops and retreat is played, I like everyone else has stopped to pay respects to the colors, reminds me why I liked being a soldier. After retreat is complete, I turn to reenter my vehicle and I spot an NCO in range walk mode moving towards a bus full of young soldiers in PT gear. He enters the bus, pulls the senior occupant (if I recall a SPC), and delivers an exceptionally loud and detailed description of the SPC's failings as a leader for allowing those in his charge to ignore/play grab a$$ during retreat. God it felt good to be around soliders again and hear a truly professional a$$ chewing...

    Last but not least, my daughter received a detention at school for some minor infraction of student handbook. Her basketball team practiced from 0600-0800 each morning. Her detention would be served in the afternoon, but as part of the punishment she was prohibited from participating in practice that morning. I discussed the situation with her coach and mentioned that I thought rather than allowing my daughter to sleep in as a result of acting a fool - it might be better if instead she show up to practice and run bleachers for the duration of practice. I practice what I preach, she learned far better than if she had slept in and done homework in a controlled environment for an hour after school.

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  11. #11
    Council Member reed11b's Avatar
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    Default "smoking" vs "squaring away"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    I've never seen good NCOs back down from squaring away a troop who needed it regardless of said troops weapons possession. Or said troop's attitude...
    I think that's the crux of the matter. Most "smoking" sessions I have seen have had little to do w/ "squaring" anyone away. Punishments for accidents that the NCO themselves helped to set the conditions for, or minor rule infractions; "HOLY MACKERAL PRIVATE!!! YOUR BOOTLACE IS UNTUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do 100 push-ups for being 8 up!" etc. Most "squaring" away with any sort of dedicated soldier can be done respectfully and verbally. Hey, soldier, you need to tuck in your bootlace. Has anyone shown you how to use a blousing band?" Yes, there are definitely times when an infraction needs serious immediate consequences (i.e. "smoking") but should not result in UCMJ. However, I have seen too many E-5s that arrived at there rank due to having a good PT score and some wrote memorization skills, and think that screaming and yelling = leadership to have the same blind faith that the NCO corp. can self regulate effectively. I have also made soldiers do pushups as a team-leader, before anyone asks; and I will continue to use that particular motivational tool in the future.
    Reed

  12. #12
    Council Member Kiwigrunt's Avatar
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    Push-ups are no longer allowed (as 'correctional' of course, rather than PT or sport) in NZ forces. Not PC..............So now they make them do 'up-and-downs'; that'll learn them!
    Nothing that results in human progress is achieved with unanimous consent. (Christopher Columbus)

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  13. #13
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Reeed, you obviously had some dealings with some bad

    Quote Originally Posted by reed11b View Post
    I think that's the crux of the matter. Most "smoking" sessions I have seen have had little to do w/ "squaring" anyone away. Punishments for accidents that the NCO themselves helped to set the conditions for, or minor rule infractions; "HOLY MACKERAL PRIVATE!!! YOUR BOOTLACE IS UNTUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do 100 push-ups for being 8 up!" etc...
    units and NCOs -- or that is beyond overstatement.
    However, I have seen too many E-5s that arrived at there rank due to having a good PT score and some wrote memorization skills, and think that screaming and yelling = leadership to have the same blind faith that the NCO corp. can self regulate effectively.
    It's not blind faith nor is it ten or 12 years experience, it's a lifetime of being, doing and watching. Frankly, those things you cite do not happen in good units. I'm sorry you experienced that and I guess that's where a lot of the negativity comes from but, while certainly such bad incidents have happened in the past, do now and will occur, I contend they're the exception rather than the rule. Supervision is needed, no question. Good NCOs provide it.
    I have also made soldiers do pushups as a team-leader, before anyone asks; and I will continue to use that particular motivational tool in the future.
    I've never dropped a man for a pushup nor have I ever seen that as a good tool for much of anything. No number of pushups will clean a dirty weapon or latrine...

    ADDED: I flat forbade anyone who worked for me directly to use pushups as a tool and also discouraged it in NCOs who worked in subordinate units by insisting that they get down and knock 'em out one for one with Joe.
    Last edited by Ken White; 09-11-2008 at 12:31 AM. Reason: Typo, Addendum

  14. #14
    Council Member reed11b's Avatar
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    100 push-ups for untucked bootlace would be an exageration but I have had NCO's drop soldiers in my team for 30-50 pushups for BDU chest pocket unbuttoned (soldier took a lot of notes), boot strings untucked and dirty boots. Not ok when you are not the soldiers TL, SL or PltSgt. Correct the soldier and I (as the TL) will determine if more needs to be done. As far as a smoking as soldier for an NCO created situation real life story - In New Orleans after Katrina, a young PFC is told to drive a 5t down a narrow road that had been washed out. PFC states he does not think the truck will make it. E-6 syas just follow me, and leads in Humvee. Shoulder of road gives out under 5t on 5t gets stuck. E6 proceeds to smoke PFC for 2 1/2 hours while waiting for a wrecker. PFC was not in my team but it P.Oed me all to heck when I found out about it anyway. Even when "smoking" is warranted, there is usually another way. Even in the examples given, there were non-humiliation means of addressing the problem. Screaming does not equal leading.
    Reed

  15. #15
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Like I said, you've got a units you've been in problem...

    Quote Originally Posted by reed11b View Post
    100 push-ups for untucked bootlace would be an exageration but I have had NCO's drop soldiers in my team for 30-50 pushups for BDU chest pocket unbuttoned (soldier took a lot of notes), boot strings untucked and dirty boots.
    Sounds like an or some NCOs with too little to do to me. What did you do about it?
    Not ok when you are not the soldiers TL, SL or PltSgt. Correct the soldier and I (as the TL) will determine if more needs to be done.
    Agreed.

  16. #16
    Council Member jkm_101_fso's Avatar
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    Default Generally, it works

    NCOs are good at smoking and Soldiers are good at PT. A match made in heaven! OK, just kidding. I'm an prior service officer and was smoked many times as a young Soldier. I deserved every single one.

    I will echo the sentiments of others on this thread by saying getting smoked is better than losing pay, doing extra duty or even getting it on paper. That is pretty indisputable.

    As a LT, there was only one instance where I had to stop an NCO from a smoke session. It wasn't because it was harsh or anything of that nature, but his timing was terrible. The BDE CDR was giving my BN a "Pep talk" prior to our deployment and this NCO decided that his Soldier nodding off needed some motivation to stay awake. I simply asked him not to interrupt the BDE CDR and wait until he left.

    For every 99 NCOs that are mature and competent and would never abuse this type of corrective punishment, there is one who will. That's life. I wouldn't advocate eliminating smoke sessions, because of that.

    In regards to COIN, I don't buy the theory that if we smoke our Soldiers, they would in turn treat the HN civs cruely. It comes back to leadership. Soldiers behave and perform primarily based on the conditions established by their leadership, from TL to BN CDR. I saw many Soldiers smoked in OIF for various things go out on missions treat Iraqis with dignity and respect. They were mature enough to make the separation. But then again, our unit had good leaders who fostered and promoted that environment.
    Sir, what the hell are we doing?

  17. #17
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    Leadership techniques have to vary according to circumstance and audience. Mr. Ewing apparently comes from the school that believes 'one size fits all' and that enforcing Army policy trumps leaders employing common sense, military judgment, and effective techniques. My first platoon was filled with poorly-educated, drug-drenched, ambitionless thugs - back in the day when it was nearly impossible to chapter out poor performers. By the time I assumed company command, the majority of those folks were gone, replaced by brighter, better educated troops eager for promotion (God Bless Ronald Reagan). Guess what? We had to use different ways to motivate different kinds of troops.

    By the time I assumed battalion command, I had an NCO Corps that had forgotten how to motive the unmotivated - the Army had made getting rid of poor soldiers so easy that working with them (or working them over) was too much trouble. I am glad, in a sense, that the NCOs have rediscovered the wonderful talent for imaginative correction.

    I've always thought that the perfect punishment (for me anyways) was walking the area at West Point. It was so humiliating, painful, and utterly pointless that a dozen hours of it was more than enough to motivate me to comply with West Point standards (at least until I was eligible for room con).

  18. #18
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Note to self: Before you adversely counsel someone, make sure they aren't armed. Or able to beat your *ss.

    http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/0...gging_092208w/

  19. #19
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Just from the articles narrative I can already see the "self defense" argument. This will be on the national news pretty darn quick.
    Sam Liles
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    Army Times:
    Neither Dawson nor Durbin was wearing body armor, helmet or other protective gear during the counseling, and each was shot multiple times.
    Wait for the rocket that sees everyone having to wear full body armor whilst conducting an in-theatre counselling session. And don't forget the armed MP detachment that will have to be present, just to be sure that everything is (legally and procedurally) kopacetic.

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