MAJ Ehrhart - Increasing Small Arms Lethality in Afgh.

[davidbfpo]

Kaur,

I'm no good on the muzzles of machine guns. My first guess was a MG42, but I doubt if that is in the Macedonian or US armoury.

[Fuchs]

Kaur,

I'm no good on the muzzles of machine guns. My first guess was a MG42, but I doubt if that is in the Macedonian or US armoury.

MG3

MG 74, the Swiss SIG 710-3, MG 51, MG 1, MG2 and MG 42 look almost identically.


The only non-related machinegun with such looks is the CETME Ameli.


Macedonia uses former Warsaw Pact weapons according to Jane's Infantry Weapons 04/05. I wouldn't be surprised if they received some reserve stocks from Germany as part of standards harmonisation with NATO, though.

[Vojnik]

Different time. While daring action occurs on a small scale and locally today, it is not broadly tolerated in the west. Those days are gone, they were killed off by the politically correct movements of the 70s and are highly unlikely to return short of a major, existential war. Risk avoidance is all too prevalent today, a societal (and thus quite difficult to reverse), not a military impact.

Ken, I will respectfully disagree. In fact, when I was a young LT in the Army fighting in Iraq in 2003, my platoon single-handedly escorted the 82nd Airborne Division Chorus (see link) across Fallujah from Division HQ in Ramadi.

If a bunch of Soldiers in ascots singing and dancing doesn't epitomize "daring action", then I don't know what does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1IjaJwLz58

My post is related to the topic at hand b/c I'm pretty sure every one of my soldiers wanted to shoot the Chorus with something larger than 5.56mm.

[Ken White]

My post is related to the topic at hand b/c I'm pretty sure every one of my soldiers wanted to shoot the Chorus with something larger than 5.56mm.

"...it is not broadly tolerated in the west."

(emphasis added / kw)

Friend of mine was at one time the CSM of the 407th S&T Bn and thus was the Godfather of the Chorus at the time -- and he wanted to shoot 'em.

I missed them. Fortunately, they came along after my time.

[davidbfpo]

As always an expert report on what happened on the ground from FRI; which rather demolishes the NATO footage of Macedonian & US rifle fire on the suspects:

I originally thought it was undisciplined fire from Afghan Security Forces who were shooting at ghosts, as there was only one spot in the city with active shooters. Turns out I was wrong. Most of the shooting The Bot was hearing came from the ISAF Headquarters where the Macedonian guard force joined by Americans from the HQ staff started shooting at a building 1000 meters away with AK 47’s (Macedonians) and M4 rifles (Americans). What they thought they were doing and where all those rounds impacted is a mystery to me. I can guarantee that none of them came close to hitting the 6 gunmen who were outside the effective range of ISAF battle rifles. Apparently the shooting from the ISAF HQ lasted over two hours and only stopped when they ran out of ammo..

There's more on:http://freerangeinternational.com/blog/?p=4475

That NATO public relations thought the footage was to ISAF's advantage is now to say the least embarrassing.

[Fuchs]

For several years, I have held the suspicion that

(1) Carbine/rifle firepower quality is being overestimated and it's still the machine guns and sniper rifles that do 80% of the job (~Pareto) - just as they did in the age of bolt-action carbines.

(2) Western infantry superiority is being overestimated due to plate armour, Medevac and non-platoon-organic support fires.

(3) Taliban are not as much into killing as into fighting, and thus consider many engagements a 'success' while ISAF/OEF does count them as a success, too.


P.S.:

How exactly do you set up and use a 82 mm recoilless gun INSIDE a building?
Does this probably explain the meagre amount of 82mm shells fired and meagre 'determination'?

[Kiwigrunt]

How exactly do you set up and use a 82 mm recoilless gun INSIDE a building?

The photo of the building from where the kickless cannon was fired shows the building to be in construction, with no windows. So air pressure as such should not be too much of a problem. I'd want to be wearing ear-muffins though!

[kaur]

HK's 5 cents.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk4...8-now-g28.html

[kaur]

HK IAR

USMC M27 IAR Production Order Awarded

Last week HK Inc received the production contract for 3,300 M27 Infantry Automatic Rifles (IAR's) for full fielding in Marine infantry units. First deliveries are expected in November on the US Marine Corps birthday. This effort started in 1999 with a "Field Experiment" but has now been put to bed - or has it? Some believe this could lead to possible replacement of the USMC M16A2/A4 in service with the Marines as the Marine Corps is not officially signed on to the Army's ongoing Individual Carbine competition.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk4...r-awarded.html

[Kiwigrunt]

The new Kiwi DMR

[Vojnik]

Regarding the USMC's IAR...isn't this roughly the same concept as the British Army's LSW? Or for that matter, the RPK or Browning Automatic Rifle?

Maybe I'm missing something, and I'm open to ideas, but I'm not sure I can see the benefit of a 5.56mm light support weapon firing from 30-round magazines instead of a belt-fed weapon.

[Ken White]

Regarding the USMC's IAR...isn't this roughly the same concept as the British Army's LSW? Or for that matter, the RPK or Browning Automatic Rifle?

Maybe I'm missing something, and I'm open to ideas, but I'm not sure I can see the benefit of a 5.56mm light support weapon firing from 30-round magazines instead of a belt-fed weapon.

Reliability, weight and ammo conservation in that order to the second. Belt fed weapons are a maintenance and ammo burden on a Platoon for little benefit. Belt fed weapons can do more damage when employed in pairs and at Company level...

[kaur]

In May 2010, the USMC announced the adoption of the HK IAR as the M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle and placed them with units in combat areas. The M27 has proven that it provides better firepower than the SAW without the steel links in belt-fed ammo that add bulk and weight for the gunner, make reloading a two-handed evolution and take the gun out of the fight to clear some stoppages. Is this just my opinion? No. These are facts passed to me at Quantico by Chris Wade, a Marine Corps Battalion Gunner, while I was knocking down targets with three-round bursts with the M27 at 500 meters—something that would have taken half a belt with a SAW. If the HK IAR makes a salty Marine Gunner happy, I am not going to argue the point.

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...?right=related

[Fuchs]

Bursts...500 meters.

I smell propaganda (or incompetence).

[kaur]

First hit; second, third missed?

[Fuchs]

Even IF he was hitting consistently (and wasting 2/3 of the cartridges with burst instead of single shots):

His "I was knocking down targets" creates the illusion that such hits would be effective, which is grossly misleading. 5.56 mm is at that range more like a small calibre pocket pistol bullet at short range.

[ganulv]

5.56 mm is at that range more like a small calibre pocket pistol bullet at short range.

Which would kill anyone not wearing body armor dead enough.

[carl]

Even IF he was hitting consistently (and wasting 2/3 of the cartridges with burst instead of single shots):

Isn't 33% hits at that range a very good result for somebody who has not been to some kind of special school?

[Fuchs]

@ganulv: Such hits are lethal only in a handful spots.

Isn't 33% hits at that range a very good result for somebody who has not been to some kind of special school?

Fifth week of basic I scored 70% hits with G3 (with an old 4x scope) on 450m and was asked why I was missing so much (I did because I was erroneously compensating when in fact I was hitting, but target didn't fall because it was already too perforated).

More evidence it's propaganda:

(...)than the SAW without the steel links in belt-fed ammo that add bulk and weight for the gunner(...)

As if magazines were weightless.

Textile belt pouch + steel links weighs less than textile mag pouches + mags IIRC.

[ganulv]

@ganulv: Such hits are lethal only in a handful spots.

Oh, I know. If you at one point in your life thought a used lever action .30-30 was the best Christmas gift you could possibly receive you might still be a little bit of a redneck. I realize that lethality is ideal if you soldier for a living, but that doesn’t mean I want anyone pointing their .22 rimfire anywhere near any part of my body.

Textile belt pouch + steel links weighs less than textile mag pouches + mags IIRC.

You Germans and your hang-up with optimal engineering. I’m speaking ironically, I don’t think it is a bad thing. My undergraduate advisor’s father served as DOT&E under Clinton and from time to time pops up in the American media portrayed as a shill for the Democrats. My advisor told me that his father’s guiding principle in life is “Does it work?” and that that was more than enough to earn him plenty of ire in D.C.