Fiasco at the Army War College?

[Voodoun]

When I say Europe is lost, I just mean its lost - those people are goofy as sin. The Germans are the worst - seriously, its like if you dont have a pee fetish you arent cool.


I don't know if there's much of a conspiracy, really, AQ and simliar groups have made their goals pretty clear.

So I grew up in a small neighborhood next door to a large Palestinian family. They're very religious, but no more than your average devout Baptist. The three families with kids in the area had 3 boys of similar age. We all grew up together, celebrating Christmas and Ramadan at eachother's houses.

The Arab family's extended relatives were always over, and on special occasions big trips to the local mosque would ensue, for birthdays and such. The Mosque was just a good sized house across from the University.

A couple years after 9/11 that Mosque was discovered to be part of terrorist financing network.

For years we thought the idea that the Soviets had agents in high levels of government was just McCarthyist claptrap. We now know that our entire counterintelligence apparatus was designed with the crucial assistance of an MI6 officer "Kim" Philby. Years later we discovered that Philby had been a Soviet Agent since he was at Cambridge.

I don't think Islamists have penetrated our security apparatus, no, but there is certainly something to be said for their clandestine capabilities.

[Cavguy]

When I say Europe is lost, I just mean its lost - those people are goofy as sin. The Germans are the worst - seriously, its like if you dont have a pee fetish you arent cool.


I don't know if there's much of a conspiracy, really, AQ and simliar groups have made their goals pretty clear.

So I grew up in a small neighborhood next door to a large Palestinian family. They're very religious, but no more than your average devout Baptist. The three families with kids in the area had 3 boys of similar age. We all grew up together, celebrating Christmas and Ramadan at eachother's houses.

The Arab family's extended relatives were always over, and on special occasions big trips to the local mosque would ensue, for birthdays and such. The Mosque was just a good sized house across from the University.

A couple years after 9/11 that Mosque was discovered to be part of terrorist financing network.

For years we thought the idea that the Soviets had agents in high levels of government was just McCarthyist claptrap. We now know that our entire counterintelligence apparatus was designed with the crucial assistance of an MI6 officer "Kim" Philby. Years later we discovered that Philby had been a Soviet Agent since he was at Cambridge.

I don't think Islamists have penetrated our security apparatus, no, but there is certainly something to be said for their clandestine capabilities.

Let's assume your neighbors were in on the terrorist financing (which terrorists?), but how exactly are they going to bring down western civilization?

And AQ has nowhere near the resources or organization that the KGB did. Come on.

[Voodoun]

My neighbors had nothing to do with it, they simply unwittingly tithed to a mosque that misdirected their money. The father of that family was a dedicated family man who came to America to marry the wife of his brother who already had 3 kids but had been shot and killed at the small corner store he ran.

Today the kids are HAMAS sympathizers and feel alienated by the US government.

Desire to bring down western civilization does not equal capability, and I didn't argue that they could do it. I was simply offering some insight.

I also never made any comparisons to the KGB's financing and AQ's financing.

I'm not saying AQ has the capacity to do what it wants to do.

But I will also point out that 50 years ago NO ONE would have thought that Turkey would have an Islamic party in power. 50 years ago the Lebanese would never have believed you if you told them that Christians would be a tiny minority.

[Cavguy]

My neighbors had nothing to do with it, they simply unwittingly tithed to a mosque that misdirected their money. The father of that family was a dedicated family man who came to America to marry the wife of his brother who already had 3 kids but had been shot and killed at the small corner store he ran.

Today the kids are HAMAS sympathizers and feel alienated by the US government.

I think my argument against this Islamists fear-mongering is made by your last point.

Why would those kids feel that way - because wingnuts like the ones I quoted have told them that they do not belong and are not welcome in western society, and are to be distrusted as potential AQIZ moles. Our worldwide "war against terror" is nearly universally seen in the muslim world as a "war against islam", no matter how we market it.

People tend to perform to society's expetations of them.

What we fail to realize is that our fear and actions are losing this war for us, and exposing the darker sides of America.

[marct]

Hi Voodun,

Let me just pick up on this comment:

A couple years after 9/11 that Mosque was discovered to be part of terrorist financing network.

A fair number of "terrorist financing networks" came into existence because the groups that were involved in the fundraising were redefined as "terrorists". It would be like the "Christian Save the Children's Fund" suddenly be identified as a "terrorist" organization.

[Voodoun]

Hi Voodun,

Let me just pick up on this comment:



A fair number of "terrorist financing networks" came into existence because the groups that were involved in the fundraising were redefined as "terrorists". It would be like the "Christian Save the Children's Fund" suddenly be identified as a "terrorist" organization.

suddenly, for no reason? HAMAS, Hizballah, Muslim Brotherhood, these guys all have numerous charitable arms. Maybe I put too much faith in the FBI, but I assume they did their due diligence.

[marct]

suddenly, for no reason? HAMAS, Hizballah, Muslim Brotherhood, these guys all have numerous charitable arms. Maybe I put too much faith in the FBI, but I assume they did their due diligence.

Oh, I didn't say for no reason . But, suddenly? Yup. Let me give you an example: in Canada, Hamas used to be a perfectly legal organization. This legal situation only changed after 9/11, so people who had supported Hamas financially, and there were a fair number here who did, all of a sudden found that they were supporting a "terrorist network".

I remember chatting with one of my students in 2002 about this. His university tuition, along with living expenses, were being paid for by Hamas which, BTW, he was quite open about. Now they had agreed to pay his university costs if he agreed to go back to Lebanon and do civil engineering for 4-5 years in some of the areas they controlled (which, BTW, he had grown up in).

Was he a terrorist? Not in my opinion at that time, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is still a Hamas supporter.

[Voodoun]

Well I suppose 'suddenly' happens any time something goes from one category to another.

I don't know how many new organizations were added to the FTO list since 9/11 - lets look.

36 in 2004 vs 28 in 1999.

Of those 8 I'd have to dig deeper to find out how many existed before 2001.

[Steve Blair]

I'd say this thread is straying a wee bit off course. The whole AWC thing seems to have played itself out, so what say we leave its bones and move on?

[Ken White]

When I say Europe is lost, I just mean its lost - those people are goofy as sin. The Germans are the worst - seriously, its like if you dont have a pee fetish you arent cool.

We have a number of foreign, including European and German, members and that comment was out of line. You said it, so no sense in trying to retract it or apologize but don't repeat the error.

[Voodoun]

Ok, I wont make any more attempts at humorous jabs - nor did I realize that my PSYOP skills were being put to the test on an online bboard. Good to know, thanks. I'm on it.