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  1. 01-22-2008 #1
    selil
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    Default Clausewitz v. Tilly

    I've heard it often said that Clausewitz refers to war as inextricably linked to politics and war is a continuation of politics. I can reverse that and say that war is within the spectrum of conflict. Can anybody name a book and chapter where Clausewitz says this explicitly? In book 1, chapter 1 he talks around it, and in my version from Penguin classics Anatol Rapoport discusses it.

    The reason being I'm reading Charles Tilly "The Politics of Collective Violence", and he says in Chapter 3 that Clausewitz argued for a segregated (from society) military organization. To me that seems totally counter-intuitive to the themes through out "On War". But, I can't find anything to directly refute it.

    Suggestions?
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  2. 01-22-2008 #2
    SteveMetz
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    I've heard it often said that Clausewitz refers to war as inextricably linked to politics and war is a continuation of politics. I can reverse that and say that war is within the spectrum of conflict. Can anybody name a book and chapter where Clausewitz says this explicitly? In book 1, chapter 1 he talks around it, and in my version from Penguin classics Anatol Rapoport discusses it.

    The reason being I'm reading Charles Tilly "The Politics of Collective Violence", and he says in Chapter 3 that Clausewitz argued for a segregated (from society) military organization. To me that seems totally counter-intuitive to the themes through out "On War". But, I can't find anything to directly refute it.

    Suggestions?
    I know this isn't really what you were asking, but I'd recommend Tony Echevarria's latest book.
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  3. 01-22-2008 #3
    William F. Owen
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    Can anybody name a book and chapter where Clausewitz says this explicitly? In book 1, chapter 1 he talks around it, and in my version from Penguin classics Anatol Rapoport discusses it.
    You have the worst translation of Clausewitz ever written. Throw it, and get this one. http://www.amazon.com/War-Carl-von-C.../dp/0691018545

    It's the only acceptable version (that I am aware of) for military thought.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
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  4. 01-22-2008 #4
    selil
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMetz View Post
    I know this isn't really what you were asking, but I'd recommend Tony Echevarria's latest book.
    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    You have the worst translation of Clausewitz ever written. Throw it, and get this one. http://www.amazon.com/War-Carl-von-C.../dp/0691018545

    It's the only acceptable version (that I am aware of) for military thought.
    Purchased them both.

    You know I blame SWC for this and especially the absent MarcT. In my last semester of course work and my last 4 credits for my doctorate I could have taken Kayaking or Archery. Instead I'm taking two doctoral level sociology classes on conflict and violence. OH and it's SIX credits so I'm tossing two off the bridge for free! But, I get to read books like "The electric kool-aid acid test".... 32 books in 16 weeks...
    Sam Liles
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  5. 01-22-2008 #5
    Steve Blair
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    Default

    You may also want to get your hands on Handel's "Masters of War." He goes into some pretty interesting comparisons of ol' Carl, Sun Tzu, and other "old school" military theorists.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
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  6. 01-22-2008 #6
    Rob Thornton
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    Sam, I'll see if I can get you close when I get home today. It would not hurt to look up some of the other folks who have spent some time thinking about the nature of war.
    Best, Rob
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  7. 01-22-2008 #7
    SteveMetz
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    Heck, I'd suggest emailing Tony Echevarria. He's better equipped to answer this than anyone I know with the possible exception of Colin Gray or Chris Bassford.
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  8. 01-22-2008 #8
    slapout9
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    Selil, try Carl's homepage there is a search able quotes section.
    http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/CWZBASE.htm
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  9. 01-22-2008 #9
    SteveMetz
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    Selil, try Carl's homepage there is a search able quotes section.
    http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/CWZBASE.htm
    That's Chris Bassford's page. Use the search engine to find his admittedly witty goring of me.
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