View Poll Results: Should NATO deploy additional military forces to Afghanistan?

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Thread: NATO in Afghanistan till 2015 (merged thread)

  1. #141
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Here is link to a news story about 2 American helicopters killing 9 of 10 Afghan boys out collecting firewood.

    http://www.statesman.com/news/world/...type=ynews_rss

    The survivor, aged 11, said this.

    We were almost done collecting the wood when suddenly we saw the helicopters come," said Hemad, who, like many Afghans, has only one name. "There were two of them. The helicopters hovered over us, scanned us and we saw a green flash from the helicopters. Then they flew back high up, and in a second round they hovered over us and started shooting. They fired a rocket that landed on a tree. The tree branches fell over me, and shrapnel hit my right hand and my side.
    This is a very terrible and tragic thing for everybody. Given the boy's description of the event, I don't understand how the helo crews could have made such a mistake. If somebody who is knowledgeable about attack helo ops could give some info on how this could have happened it would be helpful.

    This is event is a nightmare.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 05-13-2011 at 09:43 AM.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  2. #142
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    The translation sounds fishy, but I read about the general story elsewhere, too.
    Btw, your link is broken.

  3. #143
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Fuchs:

    I didn't think of that, even so it is very very bad. This link should work.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/wo.../03afghan.html

    The final report on this thing, if we ever get to see it, will not be pleasant reading.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  4. #144
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    I supervised a grievance board in Ghazni/Wardak, serving as a liaison between local Afghans and the US military on issues of air strikes, house searches, arrests, wrongful deaths, and compensation. It struck me how severely disconnected the US military officers were from the situation, making me believe my post was merely figurehead causing me to eventually quit. Time and again, I provided specific names of village youth joining the local Taliban resistance and it being a direct effect from an air strike or a mission they conducted in the region. They were more concerned about Taliban locations, rather than develop a comprehensive strategy to eliminate recruitment. It was incredibly frustrating and I don't envy my successor in the least bit.

  5. #145
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taabistan View Post
    I supervised a grievance board in Ghazni/Wardak, serving as a liaison between local Afghans and the US military on issues of air strikes, house searches, arrests, wrongful deaths, and compensation. It struck me how severely disconnected the US military officers were from the situation, making me believe my post was merely figurehead causing me to eventually quit. Time and again, I provided specific names of village youth joining the local Taliban resistance and it being a direct effect from an air strike or a mission they conducted in the region. They were more concerned about Taliban locations, rather than develop a comprehensive strategy to eliminate recruitment. It was incredibly frustrating and I don't envy my successor in the least bit.
    Your post and your post bring question after question to my mind and I hope you don't mind a short string.

    Did the mood or opinions of the Afghans you worked with about these things change during your time?

    Were there any differences between the services or the various nationalities about these things?

    What did they say when you brought up the importance of these things driving Taliban & company recruitment?

    Were there any differences in attitude between senior and junior officers or between spec ops and regular forces?

    It is sad that some don't get it after all these years.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Your post and your post bring question after question to my mind and I hope you don't mind a short string.

    Did the mood or opinions of the Afghans you worked with about these things change during your time?

    Were there any differences between the services or the various nationalities about these things?

    What did they say when you brought up the importance of these things driving Taliban & company recruitment?

    Were there any differences in attitude between senior and junior officers or between spec ops and regular forces?

    It is sad that some don't get it after all these years.
    Hey carl, what's up? Sorry for the late reply. Most (if not all) Afghans were for the invasion, and still believe we can salvage a brighter future if we reform certain policies (i.e. air strikes, house searches, detention facilities). My personal opinion is mixed. I was part of a negotiation team which spoke with Taliban delegates about the closing of al-Qaeda camps and handing Osama bin Laden to a "neutral" country. I believed the Taliban were very receptive and sought to avoid tarnishing their reputation by creating a smokescreen through their "fatwas", extolling the faith of Osama and calling him a "mujahid." Most people will disagree with me.

    Most of these colleagues have been dismayed by the way this war has regressed to, citing the US' focus on Iraq as being pivotal for Taliban resurgence. Others, particularly native Afghans from the Pashtun south, have been dismayed by the loss of civilian life. Others like Hazara Afghans from the west obviously don't prioritize this the same way but are worried about the so-called "Pashtunification" of Afghanistan.

    The American soldiers were generally professional and courteous towards me, although I do speak english and have lived in both Canada and the States, which may have been a factor. I feel there is a sense of frustration, particularly those troops who have experienced combat for so long, and with a great deal spent in areas like Kunar and Khost were violence is rampant. I've noticed that American soldiers involved in some cultural and developmental projects (i.e. opening of a school, enjoying Muslim celebrations with the locals) have a better understanding of their mission and are generally more understanding. I think these activities, which are seemingly unimportant, actually help boost morale. They also improve relations with the locals, which is a HUGE asset in deterring Taliban activity. Even if locals weren't inclined to support us, they wouldn't support Taliban fighters searching for places to launch attacks from.

    The US commanders were surprisingly astute and knowledgeable about local terrain, customs, error of their policies, etc. One commander confessed that his hands are tied behind his back when it comes to detention of Afghans; in his mind, half of them were innocent and had no involvement with the Taliban. I have only met one member of Delta force and he was quite an intelligent man, speaking Farsi, Arabic and Pashtu. He was extremely observant about local conditions and the changes in Afghan domestic affairs, and quite receptive to many of the ideas I proposed.

    I think the latest pictures released reveal the need for us to step back and reassess our overall strategy in Afghanistan. If we don't, American soldiers will have to pull out.

  7. #147
    Council Member Kiwigrunt's Avatar
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    As some coalition partners are leaving Afghanistan, we appear to be digging ourselves in a little deeper.
    Nothing that results in human progress is achieved with unanimous consent. (Christopher Columbus)

    All great truth passes through three stages: first it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
    (Arthur Schopenhauer)

    ONWARD

  8. #148
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default French digging out?

    On the BBC's running log on UBL's demise this:
    1326: France is considering speeding up its timetable of withdrawing (Added 4,000 strong) troops from Afghanistan after Bin Laden's death, according to Foreign Minister Alain Juppe. "It is one of the options we're going to consider," he told France 24 TV.

    1331: Mr Juppe pointed out the goal of France's presence in Afghanistan "was not to eliminate Bin Laden. It was and remains to help the Afghan government establish its authority over the whole territory of Afghanistan and to ensure peace and democracy for its population". "Sadly, that result has not yet been achieved," he added.
    Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
    davidbfpo

  9. #149
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    This is a link to a very interesting article by Kate Clark of the Afghan Analyst Network about the Takhar airstrike in 2010.

    http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts...in_afghanistan

    There is a radical difference in what the US military and what the AAN and the locals think about the identity of the people who were killed. Ms. Clark says the following about this.
    Dealing with the U.S. military, it has felt like we are from parallel worlds. Their Afghanistan, where knowledge is often driven largely by signals intelligence and reports provided by a very limited number of local informants, with a very narrow focus on insurgent behaviour, and the normal, everyday world of Afghan politics. In the case of the Takhar attack, these two worlds simply did not connect.
    Taabistan said something similar in his post of 3-4-2011.

    (I found this article at Free Range International and Baba Tim excerpted the very same quote. I hope he will forgive me stealing it and putting it here.)
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 05-13-2011 at 09:41 AM. Reason: Cited text in quotes
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  10. #150
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    Default Is the NATO Surge Working in Afghanistan?

    Is the NATO Surge Working in Afghanistan?

    Entry Excerpt:

    As troop drawdown nears, is NATO surge working in Afghanistan? Christian Science Monitor special report by Anna Mulrine and Tom A. Peter. BLUF: "As Obama's promise of a troop drawdown nears, the US military says the surge of tens of thousands of NATO reinforcements that began last year has won some and lost some against the Taliban but needs more time to succeed."

    Also, US troops confident of Afghan war counterinsurgency strategy by Tom A. Peter, Christian Science Monitor. BLUF: "The counterinsurgency strategy of the Afghan war surge shows signs of success, say US troops, who point to fewer attacks better local relations."



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  11. #151
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    Default Afghanistan Plan Would Reduce NATO Combat Role

    Afghanistan Plan Would Reduce NATO Combat Role

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  12. #152
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default The French will leave in 2012

    After the ANSF officer's attack on French trainers a few days ago (details below), I spotted this today in UK-related report:
    ...the announcement by France's President Nicolas Sarkozy on Friday, following talks with President Karzai, that France will pull its troops out a year earlier than planned. Mr Karzai said in Paris that Afghan troops would replace the French.
    Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ns-future.html

    The French will leave by 2013, a year earlier than the NATO / ISAF plan for no combat role by 2014. In view of their training role being suspended after the deaths I have my doubts that role will resume.

    Background (pre-announcement):
    France currently has about 3,600 soldiers in Afghanistan. Paris wants to bring home 1,000 of its soldiers this year, with only a few hundred left after 2013. In a survey published on Thursday, 84% of French people said they supported the full withdrawal of troops by the end of this year.
    Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16771301

    Details on the death of the French trainers:
    Four French soldiers have been killed in northern Afghanistan after a serviceman from the Afghan National Army opened fire, officials say. Another 16 French soldiers were injured, some seriously, in the incident in Kapisa province. An official told the BBC that an Afghan non-commissioned officer got into a "verbal clash" and opened fire.
    Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16659291
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 01-28-2012 at 12:24 PM. Reason: Amend exit date to 2013
    davidbfpo

  13. #153
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    The German parliament-imposed limit for German troops in AFG has been reduced by a couple hundred.
    This was as far as I know a largely symbolic move, since the actual head count in AFG was already at about that level.

    It's being called "Einstieg in den Ausstieg" (~ entry into the exit), and this sounds like typical German slow political movement. Things are regularly being delayed on all major topics, until something really extreme happens and suddenly the Merkel administration moves at unprecedented speed (compare the government's move towards delaying the long since planned exit from nuclear power, followed by the Fukushima accident, followed by the incredibly quick end for nuclear power in Germany).


    So basically nothing substantial has happened, but with this administration we could see a sudden pull-out of all troops any time, given a substantial exogenous shock.


    This administration is labelled as conservative-liberal, but Chancellor Merkel has repeatedly proved that she has a breaking point. Once this breaking point is reached, she can jump to highly popular arch-green positions. The true driver at the top of both coalition parties doesn't appear to be either (social) conservatism or liberalism (in the original and European meaning of the word), but simply thirst for power. They're remarkably non-ideological these days.
    Last edited by Fuchs; 01-28-2012 at 02:07 PM.

  14. #154
    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    The French will leave by 2013, a year earlier than the NATO / ISAF plan for no combat role by 2014. In view of their training role being suspended after the deaths I have my doubts that role will resume.
    My guess would be that the couple of years following the exit of NATO forces will look more or less the same in Afghanistan regardless of whether they commence two years from now or a decade from now. I’m not a Sarkozy fan but I can’t really fault him too much for being in on this decision.
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

  15. #155
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Why France is leaving Afghanistan

    A Brussels-based pundit's commentary, who has some experience of Afghanistan, which offers:
    A closer analysis shows that the French government is ahead of other allies in recognising that NATO's strategy has not worked.
    The reality is that many provinces have become less stable since the US-led surge of 2009, yet NATO stubbornly claims that its strategy remains on course.
    Link:http://centreforeuropeanreform.blogs...ghanistan.html
    davidbfpo

  16. #156
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    A Brussels-based pundit's commentary, who has some experience of Afghanistan, which offers:



    Link:http://centreforeuropeanreform.blogs...ghanistan.html
    Using Clauswitz I think that the extent of the positive purpose of the Western allies in Afghanistan was just a too big one. It is one thing to give the allies of a terror network a good and proper beating, another one is to create a stable democratic state out of fragmentated and bloody reality. The former requires little and short cooperation by the local population, if at all, the latter a very great deal of it and a massive effort by themselves while the Western public partly expected their military doing a benign mix of policing and reconstruction.

    As that Afghan cooperation and effort was for the most part just not forthcoming even a better and wiser strategy with even more ressources would have most likely failed. It is the old story of the horse and the water.

  17. #157
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    David: That was a very good article. The French came. They evaluated the situation and determined things could not work as they stood. Then they determined that they couldn't change our behavior. If that couldn't be done there was no sense staying so they leave. Sensible behavior that takes into account conditions as they are.

    Our behavior, on the other hand, is based upon what we determined things would be and no change permitted. We decided Karzai was the man for the job and no matter what happens we will back him. The article mentions American military objecting to something the French wanted because that would interfere with a timetable. Again, we decided things were going to go one way and no change permitted, regardless of conditions.

    There is a lesson of some kind to be learned from this. The French will change if something doesn't work. We won't and will instead just pretend.

    Firn: I don't agree that Afghan cooperation wasn't forthcoming. We never used the power we had to demand things from the gov. We paid all the bills. All of them. If we want something, like less stealing, we should be able to throw our weight around and get it. We never really did. Instead we just hoped that our man Karzai would do the right thing. But we never forced him to.

    We got bluffed by Karzai as badly as we got bluffed by the Pak Army/ISI. In both cases we proclaimed our confidence in them and in both cases we just refused to admit we made a mistake. It is like the hallmark of our big gov/military culture is an absolute belief that we can predict the correct course of action right off the bat. All that ensues is predicated on preserving that belief so we won't change and pretend that things are just swell.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  18. #158
    Council Member gute's Avatar
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    As far as I'm concerned this is all a moot point after this latest 'koran burning' b.s. What a bunch of f-ing savages! Let's get the hell out of there and let em sort it out - maybe when it's all over the "Afghan" will become a endangered species.

    Okay, I feel better. Anyways, as much as I appreciate what or allies have done, etc - I've never quite understood why a country like the U.S. with 300+ million could not handle Afghanistan by ourselves. I get the whole NATO thing, but we should have done this by ourselves. Again, I do very much appreciate what our allies have done, are doing and their sacrifices.

    IMO, we (the U.S.) do not nation build well, at least not in non-western countries/cultures because we are not willing to do what is necessary to bring stability and make the people conform.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post

    Firn: I don't agree that Afghan cooperation wasn't forthcoming. We never used the power we had to demand things from the gov. We paid all the bills. All of them. If we want something, like less stealing, we should be able to throw our weight around and get it. We never really did. Instead we just hoped that our man Karzai would do the right thing. But we never forced him to.

    We got bluffed by Karzai as badly as we got bluffed by the Pak Army/ISI. In both cases we proclaimed our confidence in them and in both cases we just refused to admit we made a mistake. It is like the hallmark of our big gov/military culture is an absolute belief that we can predict the correct course of action right off the bat. All that ensues is predicated on preserving that belief so we won't change and pretend that things are just swell.
    I just wanted to point out that it is far easier to achieve a limited political goal depending mostly on your own ressources then doing so with a far more bigger political goal where you depend to a large degree on the 'hearts and minds' of others...

    Overall I agree with you.

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    Default NATO Advisors Withdrawn from Afghan Ministries after 2 Officers Killed

    NATO Advisors Withdrawn from Afghan Ministries after 2 Officers Killed

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