AIDS as a Security Threat

[Steve Blair]

Well, that's "accepted" ! Seriously, though, the condom / birth control issue is a key fracture line between the liberal wing (mainly US and parts of Western Europe) and the conservative wing. They've been using a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on it for quite a while now to avoid an open split with the more extreme conservatives.

Yeah, I know. I'm sure they want to avoid some of the issues that have popped up in the past few years within the Anglican church. Still...at times I think the Church and universities have more in common than they'd care to admit. It's mostly about politics and power structures, and neither group can seem to understand how those on the outside hear what they're saying or see what they're doing.

[marct]

Yeah, I know. I'm sure they want to avoid some of the issues that have popped up in the past few years within the Anglican church.

Not quite sure which "issues" you're referring to: ordination of women? ordination of open homosexuals? complete lack of basic Christian theology and inclusion of Buddhist meditation in some churches?

Still...at times I think the Church and universities have more in common than they'd care to admit. It's mostly about politics and power structures, and neither group can seem to understand how those on the outside hear what they're saying or see what they're doing.

Actually, that's really not surprising. The Western academic structures of universities come out of Church sponsored / supported education systems. There's a good, solid, historical / cultural reason why i call some of my colleagues "theologians" .

[Schmedlap]

I suspect that, in addition to opposing condoms, the Catholic Church endorses abstinence outside of marriage and monogamous relations within marriage. I also may be wrong here, but I don't think they have any objection to HIV medication/treatment, education about how it is spread, compassion towards the infected, etc, etc.

If this were just a policy of "keep screwing everything in sight and don't use protection" then that would be one thing. Their no-condom stance is one part of a significant lifestyle change that they advocate. I don't think there is any argument about how effective that lifestyle change would be IF achieved. But, that "IF" on the other hand...

[Tom Odom]

I suspect that, in addition to opposing condoms, the Catholic Church endorses abstinence outside of marriage and monogamous relations within marriage. I also may be wrong here, but I don't think they have any objection to HIV medication/treatment, education about how it is spread, compassion towards the infected, etc, etc.

If this were just a policy of "keep screwing everything in sight and don't use protection" then that would be one thing. Their no-condom stance is one part of a significant lifestyle change that they advocate. I don't think there is any argument about how effective that lifestyle change would be IF achieved. But, that "IF" on the other hand...

Somewhat true but keep in mind that policies and lifestyle programs change overtime under the influence of many factors , many of which have nothing to do with health.

In a way the policy is a defacto "keep screwing everything in sight and don't use protection" because it does not address African cultural values regarding sex. Also keep in mind that it was at one time Church policy to allow priests to take local wives as an offset for the burden of service in Africa.

As for education about how HIV is spread the policy certainly does liit education to how to prevent HIV's spread. In that regard, we the US are in the same boat as we follow a political policy that emphasizes disease but is forbidden to advocate birth control. USAID can hand out condoms but only as a disease control measure.

Tom

[marct]

Good points, Tom. As an add-on comment, there is also a fairly serious problem emerging about what defines "sex" (that problem is also rampant in the US teen cultures). When you also add in the fact that the infection vectors operate outside of sexual transmission as well, you have a real problem.

[Tom Odom]

Good points, Tom. As an add-on comment, there is also a fairly serious problem emerging about what defines "sex" (that problem is also rampant in the US teen cultures). When you also add in the fact that the infection vectors operate outside of sexual transmission as well, you have a real problem.

Wait a minute--didn't Bill Clinton settle that?

[marct]

Wait a minute--didn't Bill Clinton settle that?

Don't know . maybe some current USG (cabinet level) official could comment

[Schmedlap]

In a way the policy is a defacto "keep screwing everything in sight and don't use protection" because it does not address African cultural values regarding sex.

I think it's the exact opposite. This is not a single policy advocated separately from the lifestyle changes advocated and expected to function well within the current cultures in Africa. It is part of a larger call to change the culture. But I suspect we're in agreement regarding the likelihood of that occurring.

In that regard, we the US are in the same boat as we follow a political policy that emphasizes disease but is forbidden to advocate birth control. USAID can hand out condoms but only as a disease control measure.

I wonder if that is related to calls from the Catholic Church or if it is simply a division of efforts. For example, PEPFAR has a focus on treatment of pregnant mothers to prevent transmission of HIV to their children, efforts to safeguard the blood supply, etc. It seems like a medical approach. The USAID disease prevention seems more akin to a field sanitation or social work type of effort that can occur with significantly less (or different) specialized skills.

The taboo on advocating birth control might also be part of an image adjustment. Condoms as a birth control measure can fairly easily be construed as, "America doesn't want black people to have kids." It sounds dumb, but some people would believe it. Some people (in this country!) believe that we created HIV to kill black people. When I was an undergrad in 2002, taking an upper-level course in immunology, a student actually gave a presentation that assumed we were using HIV and various birth control drugs as weapons to kill or sterilize black people. Thankfully the professor had some words to say in response - the rest of us were speechless.

[Tom Odom]

I think it's the exact opposite. This is not a single policy advocated separately from the lifestyle changes advocated and expected to function well within the current cultures in Africa. It is part of a larger call to change the culture. But I suspect we're in agreement regarding the likelihood of that occurring.

We will have to agree to disagree on the first part in that it does not call for a cultural change; it merely ignores the cultures at work altogether and in doing so defines cultural arrogance.

I agree changing the culture is unlikely or at least slow. The Church in Afica has always tended to dictate and the Africans have tended to follow, albeit in unorthodox ways. The classic statement about the Church in Rwanda was that Rwanda had many Catholics but not many Christians. The same could be said about the Anglicans, by the way.

As for the US taboo on birth control, it is a political issue tied to religious influences across the board as they influence Congress which controls the pusre strings. My ex once got in hot water because a CODEL was touring a packaged research center in Egypt that was in her USAID portfoilio when one member saw that there was a condom machine installed in the restroom (sideways).

Tom

[120mm]

Has condom use in Africa been demonstrated to decrease AIDS rates of transmission? I'd like to see some good numbers on that from someone who's budget doesn't depend on showing that metric.

Since the Pope believes the soul is immortal, it is not in his interest to throw out a central issue within the church (monogamic sex within marriage) to satisfy people who ignore him and what he stands for anyway....

If he did, he would be analogous to the moronic doctor's organizations who decry the private ownership of guns every year. Like the doctors, it's really not his bailiwick.

[Schmedlap]

I think the church puts itself wide open for criticism on the feasibility of its goals. But as for the motivations, I think it's not productive to spin that as arrogance or ignorance. I think it is more productive to recognize that the Catholic church is big, influential, and not amenable to compromising on what it sees as the word of God, and then attempt to work with or around the church from there. I suspect that the Catholic church, USAID, and others have more goals in common than at cross purposes.