The Roles and Weapons with the Squad

[Compost]

Time flies and back in March 2011 I speculated that FN and/or HK might have enough corporate energy to develop bullpup variants of their 7.62mm Mk17 and HK417 rifles. Since then they have shown only modified versions of fwd-mags.

However, in the interim Thales has upgraded its F88 variant of the 5.56mm AUG bullpup and is now offering the 5.56mm EF88 for export with additional features as the F90. It comes with a choice of barrels as the F90 carbine (407mm barrel in 700mm overall) and F90 marksman (508 in 802mm) each with optional 40mm UGL. There is also an F90 CQB carbine (360 in 653mm).

It is possible that Thales has enough corporate energy remaining to develop a 7.62mm version of the EF88/F90. That would be a suitable outcome and reward for the apparent ‘easy as it goes’ or timid attitudes of FN and HK.

[ganulv]

Time flies and back in March 2011 I speculated that FN and/or HK might have enough corporate energy to develop bullpup variants of their 7.62mm Mk17 and HK417 rifles.

Going to war with a bullpup is like going to the beach in a Speedo. It just doesn’t work for Americans.

[Ken White]

If I ever saw it...

[Compost]

Going to war with a bullpup is like going to the beach in a Speedo. It just doesn’t work for Americans.

Amusing response but do Americans insist on swimming everywhere in boardshorts ? Some obviously do and will continue to. However, Speedo was bought out by an American conglomerate in the 1990s.

The F90 is probably aimed first at targets in Europe such as succeeding the 5.56mm Famas. Complementing the M16/M4 might come later.

[Ken White]

Amusing response but do Americans insist on swimming everywhere in boardshorts ?

Most of us prefer no shorts but the law -- like other things -- is humorless...

Some obviously do and will continue to. However, Speedo was bought out by an American conglomerate in the 1990s.

We will sell it to the Chinese and you can buy it back.

Complementing the M16/M4 might come later.

Been done, didn't sell, thus the comment from Ganulv -- and my effective concurrence thereto.

Why add a 'complement' to a flawed weapon anyway...

[Compost]

Most of us prefer no shorts but the law -- like other things -- is humorless...

That’s certainly a way to stress the front end. But why would any force rely mainly on a weeny 5.56mm that lacks power and range ?

Why add a 'complement' to a flawed weapon anyway...

To accentuate the attributes of a bullpup.

Related topic. Believe we had sort of agreed elsewhere that 9x19mm Parabellum (plus alternate 6.5x25) was the way to go for pistols and SMGs. The other bookend could be 20x102 or less likely 20x128. The anaemic 5.56x45 will be around for a while yet. But it will ultimately be disposed of. My preference for that time is for three calibres between the bookends corresponding to infantry squad/platoon, platoon/company and company/other.

Those three – with say a 5 percent variance – could be as follows. One: 6.6mm with 8gm projectile, MV of 825mps from rifle barrel and supersonic to about 1000m. Two: 7.62 magnum with 13.5gm, 900mps from MG to about 1500m; and three: 9.5mm with 27gm, 900mps from MG to about 2300m. That era also is certain to include some poorly designed and flawed weapons.

And in the interim numerous commentators will continue pifing about the need for yet another rework of 5.56mm.

The 6.6mm rifle and carbine and the 7.62 magnum and 9.5mm sniper rifles should of course be available with bullpup and alternate fwd-mag gripstocks.

[Ken White]

... But why would any force rely mainly on a weeny 5.56mm that lacks power and range ?

We can agree on that.

We can also disagree on all the rest. While your arguments make take technical sense, they are less practical militarily or tactically. I, for one never agreed to any 9mm cartridge; I've always argued for 10mm or larger for pistols and SMG. Your 6.6mm caliber is IMO too light for the Company level machinegun and so should be avoided; all small arms in a Battalion should be of one of two calibers, pistol / SMG and rifle / MG. A medium MG is also required at about 12-15mm. My observation has been that the 20mm is not an effective military cartridge (it is both range and payload limited) and the 20x102 is particularly poor. IMO 25mm is a far better top end choice. A 30mm would be better yet but the size penalty is too great unless it is restricted to Armored / Mechanized forces (which probably should occur).

However, neither your nor my solution is likely. Nor is US use of a bullpup configuration likely (quite sensibly in my view...)...

[Compost]

We can agree on that.

We can also disagree on all the rest. While your arguments make take technical sense, they are less practical militarily or tactically. I, for one never agreed to any 9mm cartridge; I've always argued for 10mm or larger for pistols and SMG. Your 6.6mm caliber is IMO too light for the Company level machinegun and so should be avoided; all small arms in a Battalion should be of one of two calibers, pistol / SMG and rifle / MG. A medium MG is also required at about 12-15mm. My observation has been that the 20mm is not an effective military cartridge (it is both range and payload limited) and the 20x102 is particularly poor. IMO 25mm is a far better top end choice. A 30mm would be better yet but the size penalty is too great unless it is restricted to Armored / Mechanized forces (which probably should occur).

However, neither your nor my solution is likely. Nor is US use of a bullpup configuration likely (quite sensibly in my view...)...

However 6.6mm is spot-on for what is needed at squad/platoon level, with 7.62mm magnum at platoon/company. The bookend at 20mm is a realistic limit for a man-packable rifle type weapon to equip some pioneers and snipers for EOD and anti-material tasks.

You surely included 25mm and 30mm as vehicle rather than man-pack weapons. US infantry already have plenty of variety and weight with 9mm Parabellum, 5.56mm NATO, 7.62mm NATO, 7.62mm magnum and 12.7mm Browning. And that's before 8.59mm magnum is added as a gap-filler or replacement.

My last words (on this thread) regarding bullpups are a repeat from way back.

A future that insists on the bullpup configuration would be as backward as a present that insists upon the fwd-mag.