Backward Observer,
The fact that foreigners and foreign correspondents are allowed to freely move without restrictions in Kashmir should indicate that there is nothing to hide.
It maybe mentioned the same freedom to foreigners or foreign media personnel is not allowed in Pakistan's Northern Areas and there is much to write about.
That apart, many military personnel have been convicted and dismissed from service when human rights cases have been heard and proved in the Courts.
Sensational journalism cannot be curbed since India is a democratic country.
Have we not been fed with gruesome stories of human rights abuses in USSR and China in the media repeatedly and more so, through the pages of a respected and hailed magazine called the Readers Digest? I grew up on those stories.
How come China has suddenly become a place where such gruesome stories no longer surface?
The media is a great tool to 'mould' public opinion.
Remember Murdoch?
He was the paragon of virtues, right?
He only gave the truth, right?
He is the tip of the iceberg.
BTW, why was Al Jazeerah bombed during the Iraq War? I am sure it is not too difficult to guess or is it?
The article is typical of sensational news that appeals. Mention some human angle stuff, a few names and spin away.
Anyone can sit with a computer and write an article on Guantanmo, Wei Wei or any other 'hot' stuff and make it very convincing.
Because that would ruin the heart wrenching prose of his story.
How come he has failed to mention the number of military and paramilitary personnel including officers who have been jailed?
And who controls the media?
India?
Hope you enjoyed your tot of whatever you drank!
Last edited by Ray; 12-04-2011 at 06:02 PM.
Do show me a news story in the western media that is equally heart wrenching on the Kashmiri pandits (Hindus) who have been hounded out of Kashmir in a process launched with ethnic cleansing in mind?
Do show me a story which is equally heart wrenching where the Kashmir Police arrested and hounded a Christian padre for converting Muslims.
No, that would not suit the flavour of the month!
Do also show me heart wrenching stories of atrocities committed by Hosni Mubarak during the era when Mubarak was the President.
or of the atrocities committed by the Bahrain Sultan on the majority Shia population when they rose in rebellion and the US assistance given to the Sultan.
Obviously, there will be very few and that would be discarded as left liberal rubbish.
Never forget, media is an important tool to push foreign policy!
Backwards Observer, I don't disagree with your observations, India is frequently called, "a democracy of the few, for the few." India is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, especially considering its status as an emerging superpower. In my opinion this level of corruption equates to a nation where the rule of law is near non-existent, which makes human rights violations the easier to get away with. The violations are not limited to Kashmir, and this is one of the reasons there are and have been so many insurgencies. Of course with a population of close to a billion, and a nation with 13 separate languages, and numerous religious groups with extremists in each that are intolerant of one another, plus a history of discrimination (the untouchables and other castes), the fact that India is emerging as a superpower is somewhat of a miracle.
http://www.achrweb.org/
Torture in India 2011 which is only online states that a total of 14,231 persons i.e. more than four persons per day died in police and judicial custody in India from 2001 to 2010. This includes 1,504 deaths in police custody and 12,727 deaths in judicial custody during the year 2001-2002 to February 2010. A large majority of these deaths are a direct consequence of torture in custody. But these no way reflect the extent of torture in India. These deaths as reported to the NHRC reflect only a fraction of the menace of torture and custodial deaths in India.The good news is many Indians are taking action against the rampant corruption, and we can hope this will result in a nation ruled by law, which in turn will better protect human rights.Since 2010, at least 12 RTI activists have been murdered for seeking information to “promote transparency and accountability in the working of every public authority” of India. Ms. Shehla Masood, a prominent woman RTI activist of Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh was murdered on 16 August 2011. She joined the growing list of RTI activists who have been murdered
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16003576
The scale of corruption in modern India is astounding. The size of bribes and kickbacks is enormous, the stories of corruption astonishing, and the audacity of corruption's big players ever more apparent. India has become a great power, but it has done so without washing away the canker of corruption.Things are not any better in Pakistan or Bangladesh, so as we all know this is a region of the world that has immense challenges to over come.There's something refreshing about this upsurge of anti-corruption activity - and also something disturbing. As some left-wing critics are now pointing out, there's a danger that anti-corruption activists will throw the baby out with the bath water. Youth where I work in Uttar Pradesh point out that you can criticise politicians as much as you like, but at least they have been elected. Indeed, many are now seeing the Anna movement something of a corporate conspiracy.
Well one can say that about any country, the US notwithstanding.
Seek and ye shall find.
Is corruption any less in the US or the law and order issues not there or is there not human rights abuses.
UPDATE 3-Thirteen charged in US microcap kickback cases
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7B00YV20111201
Guantanamo?
One has to see the police videos of the US police in action to believe it.
The manner in which your police operates, it can't be done in India or Pakistan or even in Bangladesh.
Such highhandedness and the police will get thrashed.
I am sorry the human rights violations cannot 'go through'. We have the Right to Information Act and what you see happening in India is because it is being used extensively and the people are getting empowered and demanding to know the truth!
Last edited by Ray; 12-04-2011 at 07:04 PM.
Posted by Ray,
One has to see the police videos of the US police in action to believe it.
The manner in which your police operates, it can't be done in India or Pakistan or even in Bangladesh.
Such highhandedness and the police will get thrashed.
I admit that some of our cops act inappropriately sometimes during an arrest (excessive force), but that is due to poor training, poor selection, and factors related to adrenalin during the arrest. The key is that this behavior isn't accepted as norm, but based on the excessive media coverage you would think that is the case. We don't have thousands of people die our prisons due to torture.
It is also important to point out that we publicize the violations and then take corrective action against those who violated the rules.
We don't have extralegal uprisings and insurgencies in our nation due to abuses, because our system addresses the abuses. Quite a difference.
On media manipulation
How To Manipulate The Media & Get Free Publicity With Creative Marketing Ideas
http://www.jimkukral.com/how-to-mani...rketing-ideas/
Weapons of Mass Disinformation
http://www.oilempire.us/media.html
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."
-- Mark Twain
We also publicise our wrongs and take corrective actions and that is why we have no hang up over foreign media personnel going to areas where there is insurgency, knowing fully well what they will report in a sensational manner.Originally Posted by Bill Moore
BBC is anti India, but they are very much in Kashmir and elsewhere. In Pakistan, they are banned!
In the case of errors with the police and others, it is the same reasons out in India - poor training, poor selection and factors related to adrenalin during the arrest, as it is in the US.
What is good for the US as reasons is good for reasons in India.
You don't have uprisings since you are not a country that has any ethnic right or majority over any part of the country, to include historical claims.
India is a multi racial, multi ethnic, multi lingual, multi religion country that is not yet developed as the US. Where there is imbalance in development, there will be strife.
Observe the EU. There are not a nation and yet they are in total disarray, each country having different ethnicity is up in arms to defend their own turf. Have a religious divide as soon it is forecast there will, if the alarming reports of the demography changing is believed and you will have the same situation as we have in India.
Already in the UK, they are in the same position as India, pandering to the vote bank i.e. appeasement. What are the riots all about in Britain? Why is the BNP slowly growing in strength? Britain never had riots till it became multi ethnic and multi religion country. And Britain is a postage stamp compared to India and having a much less population and diversity! And yet they are struggling!
Therefore, what India has achieved is commendable.
We have stayed the democratic course and not opted for a military option in governance as is the fashion in the neighbourhood!
Pakistan has insurgencies, because even though they have a common religion, they have diverse ethnicity!
Bangladesh does not have this problem because they have a common religion and ethnicity.
Therefore, there are many reasons for having insurgency and it need not be merely due to bad governance or human rights abuses! No ethnic group or religious group in a diverse mix of factors in a country likes to play the second fiddle!
We are fortunate that India has not crushed insurgencies like what they did in Sri Lanka!
Democratic norms still exist in India. Not perfect, but still worth its while!
Last edited by Ray; 12-04-2011 at 08:02 PM.
The UK is struggling?
Ray,
For a mix of reasons India is in my "good books" and does give one hope that everyone can peacefully share the growing economic "cake".
I don't find the BBC's limited reporting on India is spiteful, for many years I enjoyed Mark Tully's reporting on a land of contrasts.
Amidst your post was this, which caught my Anglo-centric eye:Politicians when facing a democratic, free electorate will always be accused of 'pandering', even 'appeasement' although that remains a bad word here.Already in the UK, they are in the same position as India, pandering to the vote bank i.e. appeasement. What are the riots all about in Britain? Why is the BNP slowly growing in strength? Britain never had riots till it became multi ethnic and multi religion country. And Britain is a postage stamp compared to India and having a much less population and diversity! And yet they are struggling!
The five days in August 2012 when we saw limited, high profile urban rioting in England only was a shock to many and politically has all the appearance of having been forgotten already. This link may explain much of the why and how:http://www.5daysinaugust.co.uk/
The BNP, an extreme nationalist party, is not 'growing in strength'. Yes it did get a significant vote in the last European elections, in two northern English seats, IIRC 400k votes. Since then the leadership has fractionated, it's finances are a mess and subject to a police and EU investigation. Dip into this partial, but respected watcher:http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/
The UK has a long history of rioting and one of my best reads is 'Police & Protest in England & Ireland 1780-1850' by Stanley Palmer, an eight hundred page tome. Quite often English rioting was religious in origin for example the Priestley rioting in Birmingham:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestley_Riots
Before 1914 agitation and militancy by the newly capable trade union movement and other political factors brought the country to a near revolutionary time. Yes there was IIRC a Chinese factor, a myth that Chines labourers would arrive and work in the coal mines.
Yes we are a small country and with a growing population - eighty million by 2056 and so could become the sixth most crowded country in the world. For a very partial glimpse:http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/
Struggling? Yes. Not on your described scale though Ray. The wartime slogan 'Keep Calm and Carry On' remains valid.
davidbfpo
posted by Ray,
India is a multi racial, multi ethnic, multi lingual, multi religion country that is not yet developed as the US. Where there is imbalance in development, there will be strife.
Observe the EU. There are not a nation and yet they are in total disarray, each country having different ethnicity is up in arms to defend their own turf. Have a religious divide as soon it is forecast there will, if the alarming reports of the demography changing is believed and you will have the same situation as we have in India.
Already in the UK, they are in the same position as India, pandering to the vote bank i.e. appeasement. What are the riots all about in Britain? Why is the BNP slowly growing in strength? Britain never had riots till it became multi ethnic and multi religion country. And Britain is a postage stamp compared to India and having a much less population and diversity! And yet they are struggling!
Therefore, what India has achieved is commendable.
We have stayed the democratic course and not opted for a military option in governance as is the fashion in the neighbourhood!
Pakistan has insurgencies, because even though they have a common religion, they have diverse ethnicity!
Bangladesh does not have this problem because they have a common religion and ethnicity.
Therefore, there are many reasons for having insurgency and it need not be merely due to bad governance or human rights abuses! No ethnic group or religious group in a diverse mix of factors in a country likes to play the second fiddle!
We are fortunate that India has not crushed insurgencies like what they did in Sri Lanka!
Democratic norms still exist in India. Not perfect, but still worth its while!
Ray, I agree with most of what you wrote, and as I wrote earlier it is a miracle that India had progressed as far as it has (and should continue to progress) based on the challenges you listed. You can also add as a challenge your neighbors, but perhaps that would be impolite.
A couple of points I disagree with is your comment on the EU. They are having a lively political debate, but they are not up in an arms. Any debate and protest done legally is not an insurgency, but normal and healthy politics.
Where the EU goes in the future is anyone's guess, and some have suggested this the beginning of a return to the old Europe which had a long history of war between their states. I don't think so, but then again who really knows.
Bangladesh has made a lot of headway, but I think HUJI-B and JMB can still be considered insurgents. As you know ethnic divisions are not the only reason for insurgencies, although ethnic groups remain one of the easier groups to mobilize based on identity.
As for the media being misleading, that has always been true, but at the same time simply dismissing reports as inaccurate, especially when they're serious allegations isn't helpful. The Human Rights Violations study was not put together by BBC.
don't have a cow man
I dunno, dead men tell no tales?
Ray, India just got crowned prom queen of Asia; the judges even renamed the region the 'Indo-Pacific' to make you feel extra-special. To show your appreciation for the uranium deal, you fired off the Agni IV, 'China Killer', quite a witty move, in my pointless opinion. I don't think the West is going to be pushing you too hard on anything, you're the world's largest democracy! Relax and enjoy!
Now, if you'll excuse me, it's morning here in the antipodes, I need a drink.
Last edited by Backwards Observer; 12-05-2011 at 02:26 AM. Reason: word insertion
Certainly it is good for people to be employed. My suggestion was that an indigenous economy under local control can be fostered by the development of education and infrastructure, and that this will be more stable and less likely to produce a violent backlash than attempts by outside parties to employ "them". Tribal areas typically - and for good reason - see government and outside investors as internal colonists bent on exploitation.
I would consider LeT and HUJI to be Pakistan-based terrorist organizations, not Indian insurgencies.
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”
H.L. Mencken
That is not really feasible with the present infrastructure and the Govt must take a fair share of the blame.
The remote areas are not well connected and the terrain is inhospitable. Then there is this policy of not disturbing the indigenous culture, customs and traditions of the tribal and hill folks.
To a great extent, the rise of the Maoist can be attributed to industry and mining taking place in these tribal and thus virgin areas and disturbing the lifestyle of the tribal people.
Indeed, there are so many contradictions that has to be balanced that the whole issue of development is lopsided.
Mark Tully is more Indian than British!I don't find the BBC's limited reporting on India is spiteful, for many years I enjoyed Mark Tully's reporting on a land of contrasts.
He lives in India and goes on holidays to the UK. He speaks the language and dresses in the most casual dresses of rural India! Of course, not in a loin cloth! He is too British to do that and he called the 'half naked fakir of India', as Mahatma Gandhi was called by Churchill.
I could tell you much about the manner of BBC reporting in Kashmir. But I will give it a go by.
It is not merely the latest riot.Amidst your post was this, which caught my Anglo-centric eye:
Politicians when facing a democratic, free electorate will always be accused of 'pandering', even 'appeasement' although that remains a bad word here.
The five days in August 2012 when we saw limited, high profile urban rioting in England only was a shock to many and politically has all the appearance of having been forgotten already. This link may explain much of the why and how:http://www.5daysinaugust.co.uk/
Trace the history of riots (racial) in the UK.
All took place when the UK became politically correct and immigrants came in droves.
I am not surprised that BNP is increasing its clout.The BNP, an extreme nationalist party, is not 'growing in strength'. Yes it did get a significant vote in the last European elections, in two northern English seats, IIRC 400k votes. Since then the leadership has fractionated, it's finances are a mess and subject to a police and EU investigation. Dip into this partial, but respected watcher:http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/
If one find one's native culture and custom is being swamped, the reaction of the original native population of Britain will naturally be upset leading to closing of ranks. It is quite natural.
For instance, anyone would be absolutely horrified if all traffic is brought to a halt because some people have to read the namaz on the road because there is no space in the Mosque.
I don't find the British anger odd when they find that their girls are sexually assaulted, while those assaulting cloister their girls from the 'evil' natives of the land! It has been reported in the media to include youtube.
Jack Straw, the ex Foreign Secretary was not far from the truth when he gave what some felt was a Politically Incorrect statement. And Jack Straw was once dubbed as 'Ayotollah Straw' since he was very pro Minority.
Or the outburst of that woman on the tram (widely shown on Youtube).
These riotings are for economic reasons and not racial as such.The UK has a long history of rioting and one of my best reads is 'Police & Protest in England & Ireland 1780-1850' by Stanley Palmer, an eight hundred page tome. Quite often English rioting was religious in origin for example the Priestley rioting in Birmingham:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestley_Riots
Before 1914 agitation and militancy by the newly capable trade union movement and other political factors brought the country to a near revolutionary time. Yes there was IIRC a Chinese factor, a myth that Chines labourers would arrive and work in the coal mines.
Now, it is racial and demanding their 'rights' (religious and otherwise) and superseding the local customs, traditions and way of life.
Struggling? Yes. What I meant is that there is a serious search of identity because it is being swamped by a whole lot of immigrants, not only from Asia, Africa, but also Europe.Yes we are a small country and with a growing population - eighty million by 2056 and so could become the sixth most crowded country in the world. For a very partial glimpse:http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/
Struggling? Yes. Not on your described scale though Ray. The wartime slogan 'Keep Calm and Carry On' remains valid.
Up in arms maybe overdoing it like the media!
I was only going by the chaos going on and each nation blaming the other.
Iain Duncan Smith has called for a referendum on any change in the Treaty.
There is talk about eurozone crisis resulting in its breakup.
True, it is not an insurgency, but it nonetheless is chaos generating that can lead to instability and who knows what lies ahead in the long term scenario.
Thoughts such as The bigger truth is that years of neoliberalism and deregulation have left us with a weak economy. We are stronger than Mediterranean states, which used the euro as an excuse to relax and splurge. But we are a lot weaker than Germany, which invested properly in training and technology, whose banking system stuck with manufacturing, and whose people continued to save for rainy days rather than borrow and gamble. If Germany is calling the shots it's because Germany has earned the right to lecture the rest. does not give confidence that all will be well in the future.
Ethnic diversity in large countries, apart from economic disadvantages, does play a major role in giving rise to insurgencies. That has been the experience in Asia and Africa.Bangladesh has made a lot of headway, but I think HUJI-B and JMB can still be considered insurgents. As you know ethnic divisions are not the only reason for insurgencies, although ethnic groups remain one of the easier groups to mobilize based on identity.
I don't think I have suggested that reports should be dismissed. They have to be taken cognisance of and the wheat must be sifted from the chaff by the authorities.As for the media being misleading, that has always been true, but at the same time simply dismissing reports as inaccurate, especially when they're serious allegations isn't helpful. The Human Rights Violations study was not put together by BBC.
As far as the Human Rights body, they have their own agenda and desperate to be relevant as Pollyannas.
The Times accuses HRW of filling its staff with former radical political activists including Joe Stork and Sarah Leah Whitson, writing, "theoretically an organization like HRW would not select as its researchers people who are so evidently on one side.
HRW has been accused of bias in gathering evidence because it is said to be "credulous of civilian witnesses in places like Gaza and Afghanistan" but "sceptical of anyone in a uniform."
HRW
Claims have been made regarding alleged HRW bias with regards to Haiti, Venezuela and Honduras. Robert Naiman, policy director of Just Foreign Policy, has claimed that HRW is "often heavily influenced" by United States government policy.
I am sure we will not hear of the repression of the Shias in Bahrain from the HRW!
Link
Semantics does not really matter.I dunno, dead men tell no tales?
Ray, India just got crowned prom queen of Asia; the judges even renamed the region the 'Indo-Pacific' to make you feel extra-special. To show your appreciation for the uranium deal, you fired off the Agni IV, 'China Killer', quite a witty move, in my pointless opinion. I don't think the West is going to be pushing you too hard on anything, you're the world's largest democracy! Relax and enjoy!
Now, if you'll excuse me, it's morning here in the antipodes, I need a drink.
Indo Pacific is possibly a derivative from the Oceans of the region that matter for the US. I wonder if it is India centric. But then India does worry some people!
Uranium deal is no great shakes either.
Agni IV is what is known as an instrument for a balance of power. If China did not have it, where is the requirement for such a waste of money? Now, tell us who does China fear to have their own Agni? It is after all a Peace loving country!! Or so they claim and tomtom on the rooftops and hector others to save the money for their poor and hungry! China, of course, has no poverty and they are all millionaires! The ideal nation in the world from where the rich Chinese are emigrating!
Not to worry about the world largest democracy. One has to observe the Most Peaceful Rise of Chin, where it claims the complete Pacific, so to say, and then uses muscle power till Uncle Sam joins the show and wonders at the Peaceful Rise and the reach of the real prom Queen and toast of the Century!
Well, you seem to enjoy being in the cups!
Last edited by Ray; 12-05-2011 at 07:14 AM.
prom queen or drama queen
Ray, do you think the Western press is unfair to India? Have you noticed how they tend to write about each other? Perhaps I'm misreading your comment , but by 'toast of the Century', you seem to be suggesting that China is universally lauded by the Western press....the real prom Queen and toast of the Century!
In the last year or so, China has been compared to Imperial Japan, Imperial Germany, Nazi Germany and the 'Evil Empire'-era Soviet Union. This seems to suggest an alternative meaning to 'toast' at the very least.
Nevertheless, being a superpower or superpower-in-waiting seems to be accompanied by a rising sense of persecution, in that perhaps they have something in common with lesser powers, after all.
Well, it was actually a refreshing, chilled grapefruit beverage. Or, as a William F. Owen might put it, a cup of molten steel!Well, you seem to enjoy being in the cups!
I seem to have missed all those negative connotation of what China is, in actuality as per the western media.
I am only aware of the praises of China, to include the BBC programme Horizon that I saw last night, which stated that China was the future of the next Century!
I think you must not read much American media. The tone of coverage towards China is a mix of fascination mixed with fear. The better informed observers note China's enormous internal problems along with its impressive growth.
HRW has issued reports and press releases regarding Bahrain's repression of its demonstrations, the same as they have done for other HR violations. I'm a bit confused at why you would insist that they wouldn't do so:
http://www.hrw.org/middle-eastn-africa/bahrain
Indian Police & CT
An Indian expert's commentary on the Indian state police and counter-terrorism:http://www.sunday-guardian.com/analy...nter-terrorism
Which ends with:It is high time we also brought in some innovations rather than chanting the mantra of the thanedar resisting terrorist attacks.
davidbfpo
There's a great deal of Sinophobia in the US media, including among the commentariat. Much of it is pretty irrational, but phobias usually are. Politicians often find it expedient to direct attention toward an external bogeyman, lest the populace look for a domestic one.
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”
H.L. Mencken
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