New source of high-quality recruits

[Schmedlap]

As a general sweeping statement, I don't think it's correct.

If someone born in another country wants to be an American and loves this country, then I am not concerned about the lack of citizenship. In such a case, I say take the most qualified person. Now if we're fresh out of straights to fill needed positions and we go searching other countries, when there happen to be gays in this country who are qualified and willing, that does sound backward.

I don't think we've been faced with any situation where we're debating between foreign & straight versus American & gay. But even if that were the situation, DADT may not be germane to whether the policy makes sense, but it certainly would be germane to whether the policy is prudent. Whether or not a politically-charged policy should change is based more on prudence than whether something makes sense on paper.

The debate reminds me of the early years of the insurgency. We would go out on patrol everyday and just tell each other, "don't these people get it? They say that they're fighting to force us to leave. If they would stop fighting, then we would leave. Instead, they just keep fighting, so we have to stay." It's the same dynamic with the "gay rights" lobby. If they truly cared about this policy change, rather than the persuasive effect that it would achieve in the larger debate, then they would just give it a rest. In a few years, it would be quietly revisited, in light of shortages of critical skills, and probably changed. Instead, they keep pushing the issue, which evokes push-back from those who see what larger goal political goal is being sought.

[Brandon Friedman]

I don't think we've been faced with any situation where we're debating between foreign & straight versus American & gay.

This is the first sentence of the AP article announcing the new policy:

The Pentagon plans to recruit more foreigners in a fresh effort to make up for chronic shortages of doctors, nurses and linguists available for wartime duty.

And here's the first sentence of an AP article written a year and a half earlier:

Lawmakers who say the military has kicked out 58 Arabic linguists because they were gay want the Pentagon to explain how it can afford to let the valuable language specialists go.

Apparently it can let them go because we'll just go out and hire some foreigners to replace them. This is a clear example of what I'm talking about. We literally kicked out 58 Arabic linguists only to turn around the next year and hire foreigners to fill the "chronic shortages." Aside from the debate over whether that's right or wrong, it's a waste of money in terms of training.

Your example of how it goes in Iraq is on the mark, but I don't think it's a comparable situation. I'm not aware of any class of citizens in this country being granted civil rights without first having to publicly oppose the status quo.

[reed11b]

This is the first sentence of the AP article announcing the new policy:



And here's the first sentence of an AP article written a year and a half earlier:



Apparently it can let them go because we'll just go out and hire some foreigners to replace them. This is a clear example of what I'm talking about. We literally kicked out 58 Arabic linguists only to turn around the next year and hire foreigners to fill the "chronic shortages." Aside from the debate over whether that's right or wrong, it's a waste of money in terms of training.

Your example of how it goes in Iraq is on the mark, but I don't think it's a comparable situation. I'm not aware of any class of citizens in this country being granted civil rights without first having to publicly oppose the status quo.

Just scored points with me. Good job troop. Though I agree to a large extent with what Schmedlap was saying about how the policy would evolve quietly if not politicized, but the entire gay/homosexual issue has been politicized so that may be wishful thinking.
Reed

[Schmedlap]

Apparently it can let them go because we'll just go out and hire some foreigners to replace them. This is a clear example of what I'm talking about. We literally kicked out 58 Arabic linguists only to turn around the next year and hire foreigners to fill the "chronic shortages." Aside from the debate over whether that's right or wrong, it's a waste of money in terms of training.

I think you know better than that, especially if you have the dual experiences of having been a combat arms officer AND your current vocation which appears to require a more sophisticated understanding of the media than most people possess. There are more to these stories than the writer chooses to present. If I were still in, I would bet my next LES that the homosexual issue were an excuse to boot these individuals who were problem children for a range of other issues. I certainly don't believe for one moment that the story captures all or even most of the issue. I've seen gays serve with distinction. Their sexuality was not an issue. Had they been problem children, then I am sure that DADT would have been looked at as an option to get rid of them.

Going off of memory alone - I recall when these stories first broke. The individuals getting booted were not the types of people who generally are drawn to the military. But when they discovered that their weapons would be their ears, tongues, and brains, rather than M-4s, and that they would get nice bonuses and cushy accomodations (Monterrey) then they got interested. But even in the less rigorously disciplined environment, they were still not accustomed to the regimented lifestyle - either due to their cultural backgrounds, their social backgrounds, or just a general lack of interest in formalities that involve standing up straight and yelling.

I think you also realize that this is not an either-or situation. It's not, "oh crap, all the American recruits are gay, so let's shift all of our recruiting resources to immigrants." The fast-track citizenship was one avenue to pursue linguists - with the traditional recruiting methods still applying. If we stop recruiting non-citizens, I doubt that all of our linguist slots are all suddenly going to go unfilled. This is not a simplistic case of shipping linguist jobs overseas because we don't want gays. An either-or of hiring gays versus hiring immigrants is a false dilemma on par with hiring illegal immigrants or shipping jobs overseas. It might fly with Lou Dobbs or Jack Cafferty, but it is not accurate.

[Brandon Friedman]

If I were still in, I would bet my next LES that the homosexual issue were an excuse to boot these individuals who were problem children for a range of other issues.

I know about using DADT to get rid of problem children. I also know how straight soldiers will use the policy to try and get out of deploying. But if you have evidence or a link that demonstrates most of these chapters were conducted to boot problem children, I'd like to see it. Until then, you're just speculating. On the other hand, take the case of Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach. Or of Maj. Margaret Witt. Or First Lt. Dan Choi. Were they problem children? I don't know. But I do know that they were all trained, combat-tested, and then drummed out of the service at a time when the military is hiring foreigners to make up for "chronic shortages" in certain positions. And these three certainly don't fit into your theory about troops who were "not accustomed to the regimented lifestyle."

If you have counter-examples, I'm more than willing to consider shifting my position on this. But for now, I'm still sticking to my original point: that it's unhelpful to recruit foreigners to fill "chronic shortages" while at the same time booting Americans who serve in those same critical positions.

[IntelTrooper]

If you have counter-examples, I'm more than willing to consider shifting my position on this. But for now, I'm still sticking to my original point: that it's unhelpful to recruit foreigners to fill "chronic shortages" while at the same time booting Americans who serve in those same critical positions.

A minor quibble, but American citizens booted from DLI are not replaced with foreigners. Foreigners cannot be granted security clearances and therefore cannot hold an MI MOS. They are usually brought in (if they possess a critical language skill) as MOS 09L. They would not be serving as 97-series (or 35-series, or 98 series) which those kicked out of DLI would be or would be going to school for after completion of their language training.

[AlexTX ret]

A minor quibble, but American citizens booted from DLI are not replaced with foreigners. Foreigners cannot be granted security clearances and therefore cannot hold an MI MOS. They are usually brought in (if they possess a critical language skill) as MOS 09L. They would not be serving as 97-series (or 35-series, or 98 series) which those kicked out of DLI would be or would be going to school for after completion of their language training.

This is the way it always has been. I don't see them changing it anytime soon. Also, the enlistment of foreigners fits the general tendency in all civilian fields to do the same. It better to hire a doctor or nurse fom another country and not create the training programs so American citizens can fill the job.

This point of foreigners being used in the military has allways been done in times of failing enlistment goals. I know for a fact it was used heavily in the Vietnam years. I have a different perspective on the problem. Is a foreigner better than a criminal, the over aged or the profiled? I have no answer myself. I'm only asking the question. But our enlistment goals must be filled. (they haven't been lately) how do you fill them if you can't get the best America has to offer.

As for Gays in the military, I joined the Army as a 2lt in 1966 and served till after GW1. There were always men and woman who were different. They didn't threaten my sexuality. Go to Bangkok on RR and see what you get there. However, President Clinton tried to staighten this mess out and got his *ss handed to him on a plate. DADT was the result. And I'm sure the ultra-right would do the same to Obama if he tries to fix it now.

14 countries have restructured their policies about homosexuality and none of them have come to regret their decisions. Maybe it is time for us to wake up and smell the coffee.

[Schmedlap]

if you have evidence or a link that demonstrates most of these chapters were conducted to boot problem children, I'd like to see it. Until then, you're just speculating.

Fair enough. But I'd be on equally specious grounds if I accepted the linked article as the whole story.

On the other hand, take the case of Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach. Or of Maj. Margaret Witt. Or First Lt. Dan Choi. Were they problem children? I don't know.

Nor do I. I guess we have to rely on our respective experiences to determine whether this passes the smell test. My Spidey sense says that there is more to the stories.

But I do know that they were all trained, combat-tested, and then drummed out of the service at a time when the military is hiring foreigners to make up for "chronic shortages" in certain positions. And these three certainly don't fit into your theory about troops who were "not accustomed to the regimented lifestyle."

I could say the same about some Soldiers who were given other than honorable discharges - guys who fought in OIF I and then, professionally speaking, crapped the bed thereafter. So what? Did they violate a policy? Did they know about the policy before they violated it? I think you can make a case that in times of war that certain policies should be relaxed or abolished. But, to do that, you need to show why the benefit of relaxing those policies outweighs the consequences that the leadership is concerned about (sucking the military into a domestic political battle; discplinary issues that the media and politicians don't seem to worry about but military leaders apparently do worry about; basic inability to abide by a policy, even if it is not quite PC or well thought out, etc).

If you have counter-examples, I'm more than willing to consider shifting my position on this. But for now, I'm still sticking to my original point: that it's unhelpful to recruit foreigners to fill "chronic shortages" while at the same time booting Americans who serve in those same critical positions.

I don't think that I'm going to shift your position because it appears that you are concerned about one issue (gays in the military / DADT) and looking for some instance to demonstrate why that issue must be addressed (DADT is causing us to recruit foreigners instead of Americans). In doing so, you are arguing a false dilemma (foreigner or American) and oversimplifying the issue. Suppose that I suspend my skepticism and concede every matter of fact that you have presented. Your argument is weaker than the sum total of your facts. You choose to portray this as recruiting foreigners while booting Americans. Even if that is an accurate description of the situation, it simplifies it to the point of irrelevance. Why are the Americans booted? Why are the foreigners hired? Are any Americans being hired and not booted? If so, why? And, as noted above, if DADT should be relaxed, suspended, changed, or abolished, then you are not making the right argument to support this. You need to address the concerns that underlie the policy, not a false dilemma straight out of a Lou Dobbs report (foreigners vs Americans).

If you are just testing out an argument and looking for feedback, I would say that your argument would be solid gold if you argued it on a morning news program or CNN or a Sunday talk show. This is great rhetorical stuff. The messages that people would take away from it would probably be (1) Gays are the victims of foreign outsourcing, (2) Gay rights = American pride, and (3) End DADT and win the war.

[Brandon Friedman]

This is hardly the only issue with which I'm concerned. It warrants attention now, however, because it's one of the few defense policies currently at a tipping point. And it's relevant in terms of any debate where we're talking about the military going to unusual lengths to make up for chronic personnel shortages. That's why I brought it up.

Nevertheless, I think I've made my case, so I'll leave it at that.