Chlid Sex Abuse by AFG Security Forces?

[milnews.ca]

I'm equally sure the media do not care that the issue, while problematic in western terms, is -- at the specific juncture of east and west where it is occurring and noted -- extremely difficult to resolve

Too true, but I understand (see below) that OMLT members are starting to mention to AFG troops and cops they're training that it's not exactly cool doing this, cultural history or not, to people they're supposed to be seen to protect. Given all the other balls in the air for fighting and training troops, this is at least SOMETHING.

such articles fed to fat, comfortable westerners who are in warm houses and well fed under nominally good government and the rule of law (heh...) will do nothing but excite a lot of babble and outcry that will change nothing and will serve only to put the poor CAF at risk...

The Torch, a Canadian military web log, sums it up reasonably well, I think (offered in the knowledge that there's a Canadian military Board of Inquiry investigating allegations that have not been proven beyond mentions in mainstream media)...

....My bottom line: if abuse like this is happening on Canadian FOB's, with Canadian troops turning a blind eye, then it needs to stop. I'm told that the OMLT's and POMLT's are already advising the ANSF that they mentor that regardless of cultural traditions, it's unprofessional conduct from a force whose raison d'etre is the protection of Afghan citizens.

By all means, let's make sure the CF is stopping the abuse where and when it can. But if you're looking to condemn the entire Afghan mission because of these accusations, remember there's still a big baby in that bathwater you're about to toss down the drain. Don't stop fixing anything just because you can't fix everything at once.

[Ken White]

Too true, but I understand (see below) that OMLT members are starting to mention to AFG troops and cops they're training that it's not exactly cool doing this, cultural history or not, to people they're supposed to be seen to protect. Given all the other balls in the air for fighting and training troops, this is at least SOMETHING.

I'm sure they are and equally sure the same thing is happening in US advised elements. That is all that should be done; to make a big production out of it will simply cause the Afghans to rebel in protest at excessive interference.

It is a cultural thing that will take years to change -- if it is ever changed. We have the same sorts of problems here in the west, we're just more discreet abou it -- or more PC and won't condemn it, one or the other.

... I think (offered in the knowledge that there's a Canadian military Board of Inquiry investigating allegations that have not been proven beyond mentions in mainstream media)...

I read The Torch and SOMNIA everyday.

This was really my point:

""
By all means, let's make sure the CF is stopping the abuse where and when it can. But if you're looking to condemn the entire Afghan mission because of these accusations, remember there's still a big baby in that bathwater you're about to toss down the drain. Don't stop fixing anything just because you can't fix everything at once.""

Well said. I was railing against (a) the ignorant and self serving media and (b) complacent and possibly well intentioned but also ignorant and self serving whining from those who don't have to either understand or contend with the problem about which they whinge.

[davidbfpo]

Yes this abuse by Afg SF may occur and is difficult to deal with. Let me try to place a little context around children in Afg.

IIRC in 2006-2007 there were reports of Afg children disappearing in the border provinces, only to be found in Pakistan minus their organs and President Karzai condemned this "harvesting".

Around the same time the UK press reported that Afg children were appearing in the UK, smuggled in, who needed to be cared for and were placed in (reluctant to act) local authority care at some cost. Shortly afterwards "relatives" would appear to claim the child, who was handed over and a tidy weekly sum paid to the "relative" for care. All the children were young boys and child slavery was suspected.

Afg is a poor country and I suspect poor families sell their children, not knowingly for "harvesting". IIRC an article on farmers selling children after a poor harvest appeared on a SWJ thread.

[milnews.ca]

I'm sure they are and equally sure the same thing is happening in US advised elements. That is all that should be done; to make a big production out of it will simply cause the Afghans to rebel in protest at excessive interference.

I wrestle with this one a lot. The idealist in me thinks someone should be doing more, especially in the context of training cops and soldiers who are supposed to be protecting the kids who are being abused. The realist in me, though, knows that aside from OMLTs including this as part of the informal cultural back-and-forth, the Coalition military's plate is already pretty full given the balls already in the air and the timeframe involved.

It is a cultural thing that will take years to change -- if it is ever changed. We have the same sorts of problems here in the west, we're just more discreet abou it -- or more PC and won't condemn it, one or the other.

As is this, but I'm noticing a white-hot rage on this one compared to what I encounter on the abuse issue. Have to agree, though, on the "we're not there to impose our culture" - too many historic examples from all sorts of other cultures trying the same thing to be optimistic about the results of such an exercise.

This was really my point:Well said. I was railing against (a) the ignorant and self serving media and (b) complacent and possibly well intentioned but also ignorant and self serving whining from those who don't have to either understand or contend with the problem about which they whinge.

(a) Seen, and (b) as for what people say, what happened/didn't happen and why, I'd like to think the best intentions (yeah, I know, dream big), but am happy to let the BOI get to the bottom of it and share down the road.

IIRC in 2006-2007 there were reports of Afg children disappearing in the border provinces, only to be found in Pakistan minus their organs and President Karzai condemned this "harvesting".

Around the same time the UK press reported that Afg children were appearing in the UK, smuggled in, who needed to be cared for and were placed in (reluctant to act) local authority care at some cost. Shortly afterwards "relatives" would appear to claim the child, who was handed over and a tidy weekly sum paid to the "relative" for care. All the children were young boys and child slavery was suspected.

Afg is a poor country and I suspect poor families sell their children, not knowingly for "harvesting". IIRC an article on farmers selling children after a poor harvest appeared on a SWJ thread.

Thanks for sharing that - will track that down a bit (since I don't remember).

Thanks for the back-and-forth on this!

[Rex Brynen]

Just to reiterate a comment that I made in an earlier post—the Taliban's rise to political prominence in Kandahar occurred precisely because they clamped down against child sexual abuse (as well as a number of other acts that were widely considered immoral). While I don't doubt that the (male) child sex trade flourishes, I wouldn't presume that it has widespread local support.

It is a cultural thing that will take years to change -- if it is ever changed. We have the same sorts of problems here in the west, we're just more discreet abou it -- or more PC and won't condemn it, one or the other.

As is this, but I'm noticing a white-hot rage on this one compared to what I encounter on the abuse issue. Have to agree, though, on the "we're not there to impose our culture" - too many historic examples from all sorts of other cultures trying the same thing to be optimistic about the results of such an exercise.

The real key to addressing this is to determine—not assume—how the locals would react to actions taken to limit such abuses. At the moment, our real information level on that seems to hovering close to zero.

[Ken White]

The real key to addressing this is to determine—not assume—how the locals would react to actions taken to limit such abuses. At the moment, our real information level on that seems to hovering close to zero.

while the Taliban did and do object to homosexual relations -- officially -- we probably also need to determine if they have different feelings toward our attempting to regulate local morality versus their attempting to regulate local morality. If they object even slightly to our doing so we'd give them a propaganda coup and a half. Not as simple as just what the locals themselves want -- though that is the prime issue.

What they want, not what we want them to want or wish they did want...

[ODB]

I remember going into many remote Afghan villages where it seemed every blonde hair, blue eyed Afghan boy had his finger nails dyed. The signifignce to this is that marked them as the village (how to say this politically correct) sex slave I guess is best. This was rampant throughout the country.

On another note I'll never forget the video footage of an overwatch position from SAS folks showing an Afghan male utilizing a stump to put a whole new meaning to the "donkey show". Took weeks before I could keep a straight face whenever I heard a donkey hee-haw, and even now still chuckle sometimes.

One of the most difficult tasks is not to let your own culture and morals reflect upon executing your missions. Not too long ago we our selves were marrying much younger and having children with 13 year olds. It was the acceptable norm back then, as there are things we do now that others think are completely unacceptable.

[Ron Humphrey]

Sounds like it would be a good idea to look for the local face who has a problem with this too and the legitimacy to push for actions to deal with it.

Before as Rex mentioned the former group realizes an opportunity we'd rather they not have.