Comparing religions

[Tom Odom]

At the same time, you should keep in mind that the bloodthirstyness you mention is pretty much a characteristic of a lot of Gods (and Goddesses) at that time (say ~1850-550 bce). It had a tendency to be exacerbated, to some degree, in later iterations in duotheistic and monotheistic religions.

I dunno 'bout that Marc. Tacitus hails from just up the Eastex freeway from where I grew up. Like him, I grew up in a strict southern Baptist culture and I can attest that the God my Pastor invoked each sunday when praying for the high school football team was very genocidal in his views of the opposition--especially those who came from Catholic schools.

Tom

[marct]

Hi Tom,

I dunno 'bout that Marc. Tacitus hails from just up the Eastex freeway from where I grew up. Like him, I grew up in a strict southern Baptist culture and I can attest that the God my Pastor invoked each sunday when praying for the high school football team was very genocidal in his views of the opposition--especially those who came from Catholic schools.

Is that like he WW II Army saying that "the Germans are our opponents, but the Navy is our Enemy!"?

Personally, I grew up in a strict Anglo-Catholic (aka "confused") culture - i.e. heavy drinking, lots of incense, the Choir runs the church, and this "God" fellow gets minimal mention. We never had any real problems with the Catholics, except for that, what was it called again?, oh, yeah - "guilt" (never got that one ).

[Tacitus]

WM: I have not read this Job book. But I know the story of Job, and I’ll tell you what I think about Job.

And Job lost all without complaining or cause -- sons, daughters, livestock, all destroyed, and yet Job sinned not. Some say that we should learn a lesson of patience and contentment under wrong and misfortune. That’s what the Preacher delivering the sermon typically concludes is the message. Wrongs will be righted in the hereafter on Judgment Day. But I think that it is not good to submit patiently to wrong, or to rest contented under misfortune. I urge that it is far manlier to resist wrong, better far to carefully investigate the causes of wrong and misfortune, with a view to their removal. Contentment under wrong is voluntary submission under oppression, and (in my opinion) is not the virtue some would have it to be.

In Job there is some poetry, some pathos, and some philosophy, but the story of this drama called Job, is heartless to the last degree. The children of Job are killed to settle a little private wager between God and the Devil. Sort of like a Greek myth, humans are playthings of the Gods, subject to their whims and diversions. Afterward, Job having remained firm, other children are given in the place of the murdered ones. Nothing, however, is done for the children who were murdered. So we are just pawns, bystanders in a cosmic struggle between good and evil then?

Glad you mentioned the melancholy Dane. One of my favorite passages from Kierkegaard is:
One sticks one’s finger into the soil to tell by the smell in what land one is: I stick my finger in existence — it smells of nothing. Where am I? Who am I? How came I here? What is this thing called the world? What does this world mean? Who is it that has lured me into the world? Why was I not consulted, why not made acquainted with its manners and customs instead of throwing me into the ranks, as if I had been bought by a kidnapper, a dealer in souls? How did I obtain an interest in this big enterprise they call reality? Why should I have an interest in it? Is it not a voluntary concern? And if I am to be compelled to take part in it, where is the director? I should like to make a remark to him. Is there no director? Whither shall I turn with my complaint?
 Repetition (1843), Voice: Young Man

Skiguy: I look forward to your answer. I’m Episcopalian now. What can I say, I’m a sucker for the liturgy inside the old stone small Gothic church. It somehow fosters a contemplative mood in me; maybe it is the medieval mood. I have the parish Priest over for dinner once a month. We discuss these weighty theological and philosophical matters long into the evening. So far, these questions have not been resolved.

Like you, it gets my hackles up when I hear Christians lamenting all the violence in Islam. Have they ever read Joshua? Methinks not. If that is an accurate portrayal of the will and actions of God, then He is a God to be feared and dreaded, not loved. Sort of like a kidnapper pointing a gun at your head telling you that if you don't tell him you love him, then he'll kill you. Sure, you'll tell him you love him (anything to get him to put the gun away), but you won't really mean it down deep inside. And you will be awfully uneasy about His presence.

[skiguy]

Tacitus, I think you have the book of Job all wrong. Job was not sinless, he was blameless (because he feared God and shunned evil). It was not a "wager" between God and Satan. Satan challenged and accused God, and God wanted to show Satan that Job can be tested and go through all this suffering yet still love God.
I think Joshua is an interesting book. There's CIA-like stuff in there with the spies, and some instances where the Israelites psyched out the enemy.

Request: let's not trash others' religions or beliefs. I like to compare religions to find the common ground in the call for peace, tolerance, and reconciliation. We all know there's violent verses in most, if not all, religious text (at least in the Abrahamic religions), but what are the good things common to all of them? If Christians, Jews, and Muslims think their commandments are to be warriors and kill or enslave everyone who doesn't follow their religion, that's just plain wrong, IMO.

I'm a Christian. I believe what I believe, and admit I'm very narrow minded about it. You're a Muslim. You believe what you believe and are narrow minded as well. Neither of us is going to change each other's beliefs. Does that mean we have to hate each other? Is there any reason we can't accept each other?

[Stan]

I'm a Christian. I believe what I believe, and admit I'm very narrow minded about it. You're a Muslim. You believe what you believe and are narrow minded as well. Neither of us is going to change each other's beliefs. Does that mean we have to hate each other? Is there any reason we can't accept each other?

That has got to be the best version I've seen (read) to date, bar none.

Very Well Put !

I'm one of those Catholics BTW

[marct]

Hi Skiguy,

Request: let's not trash others' religions or beliefs. I like to compare religions to find the common ground in the call for peace, tolerance, and reconciliation. We all know there's violent verses in most, if not all, religious text (at least in the Abrahamic religions), but what are the good things common to all of them? If Christians, Jews, and Muslims think their commandments are to be warriors and kill or enslave everyone who doesn't follow their religion, that's just plain wrong, IMO.

I really don't think looking at the "dark side" of various religions is necessarily a case of trashing them although, I will admit, it can appear that way . I think it is important to look at both the good and the bad in them - if for no other reason that to establish the commonalities and differences between them.

[skiguy]

Hi Skiguy,



I really don't think looking at the "dark side" of various religions is necessarily a case of trashing them although, I will admit, it can appear that way . I think it is important to look at both the good and the bad in them - if for no other reason that to establish the commonalities and differences between them.

Marc, I have no problem looking at the "dark side". We should. I don't think anyone's trashing..YET...but the thread seems to be going in that direction.
My only "problem" (and, no, I don't have a problem with you..I'm just using that word) is when people start looking at religion too academically. I'm trying to look at it more from the POV that religion, God, the holy texts are a very real and important part of many people's lives. Critisizing it can be construed as an insult (I'm not saying I'm insulted). Faith and God can't be proven, so why bother to try? I just wonder why so many try to disprove it.

Stan, thanks!

[invictus0972]

Here is a quote that sums up my point better than I can:

"The Quran and other Muslim sacred scriptures, like those of other religions, are long, complex, and open to wide-ranging interpretations. Emphasis on details such as presumed rewards in Paradise for people who di in Jihad are, frankly, irrelevant and insulting to most educated Muslims. Muslims are not religiously motivated in any way to harm or kill non-Muslims. As with any body of sacred scripture, a selective choice of quotes can "prove" anything, including completely opposite ideas."--Margaret Nydell, Understanding Arabs: A Guide for Modern Times, 4th Edition

I would like to exchange ideas, without the theological rancour, about Islamic scriptures that confirm the bolded statements. There is a lot of talk about the scriptures that invoke violence; but from an IO perspective, I am curious to know some scriptural quotes that confirm the nonviolent aspects of Islam vis-a-vis non-Muslims. In traditional terms, I feel that truly understanding the theological presuppositions of Islam is an "decisive operation" for IO professionals.

Respectfully To All,

Invictus

[invictus0972]

Like you, it gets my hackles up when I hear Christians lamenting all the violence in Islam. Have they ever read Joshua? Methinks not. If that is an accurate portrayal of the will and actions of God, then He is a God to be feared and dreaded, not loved. Sort of like a kidnapper pointing a gun at your head telling you that if you don't tell him you love him, then he'll kill you. Sure, you'll tell him you love him (anything to get him to put the gun away), but you won't really mean it down deep inside. And you will be awfully uneasy about His presence.

Tacitus,

If an alien were to land from another planet and read only the book of Job, would they have a comprehensive understanding of Christian theology? I don't think they would. If the same alien expanded his knowledge by reading the book of Job and excerpts from every example you provided in your previous post, would they then have a comprehensive understanding of Christian theology? Even with the added information from your excerpts, I submit they still would not have a comprehensive understanding of Christianity. The point I am making is that religions should be criticized and judged in total, which is why I was asking Sarajevo for some insight. At no point did I insinuate that the history of Christianity is devoid of any evils. I was comparing one of its many teachings, Christ's command to love one's enemy, with any similar texts in Islam. In the responses I have read so far, I have yet to find, though I believe it exists, one example of this kind of dictate emanating from Islam. I have only seen attacks on inquisitors, crusaders, and Christianity in general, none of which have anything to do with my original inquiry. Sarajevo did offer examples of the kind actions of individual Muslims, but I am looking for doctrinal teachings that can be used in an IO campaign against radical salafists, for they use theology to justify much of their violent actions. It is their appeal to theology that gives them strength and resilience in the ideological arena. They justify their acts in the same way that Eric Rudolph used Christianity to justify his violent actions. However, because I am from a Christian background, I better understand, though I do not agree with, Rudolph's actions. Anyway, I just wanted to clarify those couple of points.

Also, in reference to your comments on Christianity and suffering, there are several people a lot smarter than you and I who have lucid and logical explanations for this apparent contradiction. C.S. Lewis' The Problem of Pain is a good start. I mention this knowing that you probably have already this book.