It's 14 not 16Originally Posted by MikeF
Why is the Junior Varsity always so damn jealous of the Varsity team?
Did you have to walk uphill both ways to class too? Sounds like you went to school in a northwestern mountainous part of a state where they dig banjos, sleeping with cousins, and the legal age for marraige is 16.
Wilf, you are right
that you can produce good officers by other systems. there is much to be said in favor of the IDF's every officer has previously served in the ranks approach.
The American system as I suggested is driven by history and culture and its multiple commissioniing sources produces good officers for a very large military as OE and I argued. Most of the criticism I heard in the 70s and 80s was that our advanced officer education - CGSC (now ILE) and war college was of the MacDonalds variety. However, it looks a lot like its civilian counterpart Masters programs.
Cheers
JohnT
Served in the ranks for how long and doing what?
Depends on the unit, and branch. Reuven Gal's "Portrait of an Israeli Soldier" describes the whole process in detail. - (and book recommended to me by General Sir John Kiszely)
Essentially, you have to pass out of basic training with a good score, be selected to do the JNCO course, and the best of those go on to be officers, while having served as JNCOs in the unit, to the satisfaction of the Commanding officer. It's very much about character, and ability.
The current COS, Gabi Askenazi comes from an very impoverished and disadvantaged back ground. It is said, his introduction to combat and vigilance, was guarding the family's one chicken! Maybe an apocryphal story.
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
Royal Military Academy Sandhurst
Just for information I have copied below the Training Objectives (TO) for the Commissioning Course at Sandhurst. Sandhurst remains different from other military academies in that it is a one year course focused on producing leaders to fill platoon command slots; it is not academically orientated.
TO1 Demonstrate combat fitness
TO2 Handle and fire platoon weapon systems
TO3 Navigate across country
TO4 Apply battlefield first aid
TO5 Carry out basic fieldcraft
TO6 Operate in a CBRN environment (Chem, bio and nuclear)
TO7 Officership Ethics, integrity, values and standards
TO8 Command
TO9 Perform Military Duties (including drill)
TO10 Communicate Effectively
TO11 Spare
TO12 Lead Individual and Team Training (adventure training, cadet platoon projects, sports et al)
TO13 Spare
TO14 Operate IT/IM Equipment
TO15 Lead a Platoon
TO16 Operate Tactical Communications Systems
TO17 Apply knowledge of Tactics
TO18 Analyse British Military Doctrine
TO19 Analyse Military performance in Current Conflicts
TO20 Analyse the Current Political and Strategic Context
TO21 Describe Structure and Roles of the British Armed Forces
TO22 Explain the Capabilities And Operating Environment of a Battle Group
Exercises take up 43% of programmed time. Exercises are the vital tool as vehicles both to support lessons taught under the majority of the TOs , for cadets to display the skills of leadership and command and for the DS to assess those skills and the cadets’ suitability for a commission.
It is accepted wisdom that it is only by placing cadets in conditions of physical and mental stress that their endurance and resilience can be properly tested. Whilst the exercise programme is heavy and resource intensive it should be remembered that for the majority the realities of operations are imminent on completion of Course.
The cadets also do a staff ride in Normandy which gives the cadets the chance to practise estimate and decision making against the backdrop of a past campaign. This is a challenging exercise which sees the integration of civilian and military staff at its best.
Thanks for that. Strange how Sandhurst focusses on producing Infantry Platoon Commander out of civilians, and yet the Infantry officers then have to go and do PCBC at Brecon to learn to be Platoon Commanders.
I have never understood why we do not require all male officers to graduate from Infantry basic training, with the ranks and then do a short 4-month "Officer School/Selection" followed by special to arm training. What "Officer School" consists of is open to discussion, but looking at Sandhurst and the current system challenges my objectivity. I see no merit versus alternatives.
I recently asked one of the Sandhurst Staff how many got failed out of the course and he told me, that it wasn't their job to fail people, but develop them. - This is fundamentally disagree with.
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
I never understood that either when I went through.
I think it is a cultural thing. The system works well enough and therefore there is no over-riding reason to change. I went through the old 'O' type system of Potential Officer Development Course which used to be compulsory for Scottish Division Officers. Basic training at Glencorse, no more then 4 hours sleep a night and a 'blind' programme where we did not know what was going to happen more then 2 hours in advance - those were the days
Concur. Much depends on the attitude of the company commander, the laddie beside me sacked 5 of his cadets when he was company commanding at Sandhurst. Combat arm DS tend to be more demanding at Sandhurst, especially of those who aspire to join the combat arms.
Last edited by Red Rat; 05-28-2010 at 09:47 AM.
That would be a lot like the system used by the British Army in WW2 which by 1942 went something like this:
6 weeks basic training at a Primary Training Centre
War Office Selection Board, usually for those coming straight from a PTC followed by a pre-OCTU course of a few weeks. Some went through 3 months or so at an Infantry Training Centre/RAC or RA Training Regt etc before WOSB.
4-6 months at an Officer Cadet Training Unit, depending on the type of establishment and time of the war. There were several OCTUs for each arm or service.
Serving private soldiers and NCOs could also be recommended for officer training provided they passed the WOSB.
One needs to sit and work through this in greater detail to make comment but I would say TO18-21 maybe inserted as a nice to have rather than serve any real purpose. I sometimes think it unfair on the youngsters to give them a taste of critical thinking only to see their initiative and enthusiasm dashed by the "system" later. At the School of Infantry I took both a National Service Officer course and a Regular Cadet Course (1 year). I agree with the one year highly practical approach but not sure of the Normandy bit though (maybe more of a jolly for the DSWhat about 3-4 weeks in Afghanistan? Take them on an op get them into a contact or two? (seriously)
Thanks, amazing what can be found in google books.
It seems as follows (depending on what arm you are in):
Basic training 3-4 months
Service approx 13-14 months
Officer training 4-6 months
Then this:
“Those who complete the officer courses will be commissioned as 2nd lieutenants and will return to their units (generally the same units where they served as regular soldiers and NCOs) and will be assigned to the position of platoon commander. The IDF officer is thus commissioned after twenty to twenty-four months military service, and with his acceptance of his commission, he acquires an additional twelve months of active duty time beyond the usual three years mandatory service. Accordingly the IDF can count on having these new officers for approximately two years of active duty after commissioning…”
When did they raise it?
Durn, I am sure missing a lotta changes...It's 14 not 16
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