More training, less parading urged.

[Stan]

Marc,
I like your attitude, you would have made a great NCO, albeit waaay tooo intelligent for the job

Do you feel that it has no place in moral and building an esprit du corps? I agree that as a combat drill, it is useless, but I think it still has an important moral function.

You are indeed very correct, COD were and probably still are for basic training, a means of building a sense of spirit and team work. Had to, the Drill would punish all the rest for one small idiot's mistake. You would later work out the problems at night

I also like Tom's approach. But then, he thought I worked wonders at times. However, I didn't get their on my own, I also had a drill who set me straight and emphasized in no small way, how important this would later become.

I'll let Tom decide if my Drill "dun good".

Regards, Stan

[marct]

Marc,
I like your attitude, you would have made a great NCO, albeit waaay tooo intelligent for the job

Hey, Stan. What can I say but that I'm a typical Canadian - read caught in the middle. My father and his father were NCOs and, on my mother's side, they were all officers (and portrait painters).

You are indeed very correct, COD were and probably still are for basic training, a means of building a sense of spirit and team work. Had to, the Drill would punish all the rest for one small idiot's mistake. You would later work out the problems at night

I also like Tom's approach. But then, he thought I worked wonders at times. However, I didn't get their on my own, I also had a drill who set me straight and emphasized in no small way, how important this would later become.

I'll let Tom decide if my Drill "dun good".

I think Tom does have a really good point, especially about the add-ons (i.e. too many people who don't know how to fight and will never face it). Honestly, for most of the support roles, you could hire civilians. Although, I am still in favour of combat pipers!!!!!

Marc

[Stan]

Ya know Marc,
Most everybody in the Army (yes, even the Pipers) are still required to learn other things before.....I'm not going there

Fighters, definitely not. But they are not excused from participation and accountability. You're next statement will then be very much correct, who would then send them to say, play the cry of battle. No One !

Ah, it was worth a shot !

[Tom Odom]

I guess I have a hard time seeing what exactly is the combat multipler effect of a Army choir, rock band, or whatever when we are cycling units to theater repeatedly. Granted the numbers we are talking are small and I am trampling over real and perceived traditions; but other perceptions count more--at least to me.

Drill and unit cohesion go hand in glove. Certainly they are a bedrock of building Soldiers--and yes Stan I would give your drill a copy of my book to show him that he did indeed do good.

Best

Tom

[Stan]

OK, if you buy "another" copy, I'll send it to the old fart !

Sorry, but I got a lot out of basic and COD. You take people from all walks of life and have (in my case at Ft. Bliss) 12 weeks to turn them into something.

I admit, CODs are different, but that was 1974. There was no Iraq, but in some way, the drill was expected to mold us into a team, perfecting our (ahem) mental faculties and moral character. Are you kidding ?

[marct]

Hi Tom,

I guess I have a hard time seeing what exactly is the combat multipler effect of a Army choir, rock band, or whatever when we are cycling units to theater repeatedly. Granted the numbers we are talking are small and I am trampling over real and perceived traditions; but other perceptions count more--at least to me.

I suspect that the combat multiplier of an army choir would be low - hire a civilian group for that (I can recommend a really good one ). A rock band might be useful IFF they were into heavymetal .

I think it's important to draw a distinction between "morale" and "entertainment". For morale functions, stay in-house. For entertainment, hire civilians or make them honourary Colonels.

Marc

[Tom Odom]

I think it's important to draw a distinction between "morale" and "entertainment". For morale functions, stay in-house. For entertainment, hire civilians or make them honourary Colonels.

You are correct.

In the mid-80s when we were creating Light Infantry Divisions the Army used the metric of how many troops we could get on so many C141 sorties. That was how we decided to get rid of cooks, trucks, and a host of other things found in a standard infantry division (which really has never existed because they all end up locally modifying themselves to meet the combat zone).

When the force designers were looking at this, one hard and fast rule came down from Mount Dept of the Army: thou shall not cut the division band. The justification used for maintaining the division band in the LIDs was they would become stretcher bearers in combat. This was of course necessary because the LIDs organic wheeled transport was cut to the bone.

Of course LIDs proved very mobile when it came to getting on airplanes. The real crux came when they had to get off said airplanes and walk. Soldier loads in excess of 100 pounds added great mobility to that equation, bucked up no doubt by the fact that the band was there to play marching songs and carry them should they collapse.

Best

Tom

[Steve Blair]

The whole band thing is even more amusing when you consider that they were not authorized during the period between 1866 and 1891.

Bands were maintained by subscription, typically found with the regimental headquarters, and manned by gunts detached from their normal companies. As an aside, during this period the band was also armed and held back as a reserve component if needed. Their band duties were considered secondary to their basic assignment.

Like so many "traditions," this one is more manufactured than real. It may hark back to the days when bugles and drums were used in place of radios, but then we should make all radio operators band members and be done with it...

[Charlie 14]

Marc,
I like your attitude, you would have made a great NCO, albeit waaay tooo intelligent for the job



You are indeed very correct, COD were and probably still are for basic training, a means of building a sense of spirit and team work. Had to, the Drill would punish all the rest for one small idiot's mistake. You would later work out the problems at night

I also like Tom's approach. But then, he thought I worked wonders at times. However, I didn't get their on my own, I also had a drill who set me straight and emphasized in no small way, how important this would later become.

I'll let Tom decide if my Drill "dun good".

Regards, Stan

Ahem...So just how borderline dull/normal do you prefer your NCO's?

And yes, COD is essential for turning 120 individuals who joined an Army of One (Thank God they ditched that little promotional device) into something resembling troopers, much like confidence courses, fearing-then-hating-then-loving drills, and getting the fat kid over the wall on the obstacle course, or any other team building activity is in basic training...

By the time you get done their eyeballs should snap when they do, "Eyes right."

And one of the few institutions in this country (USA) with traditions is the armed forces. Traditions require ceremony, but the less dog and pony shows, and mindless chicken#### regs, the better, at least as far as anyone who has cleared AIT goes. There are better things to do.

[FascistLibertarian]

This reminds me of that jerk in Catch-22 who gets everyone to drill all the time. And then they make him in charge of everyone in Italy.

[Charlie 14]

This reminds me of that jerk in Catch-22 who gets everyone to drill all the time. And then they make him in charge of everyone in Italy.

Heh, heh...Well, OK, had to bring that up didn't you...

Lieutenant Scheisskopf longed desperately to win parades and sat up half the night working on it while his wife waited amorously for him in bed thumbing through Krafft-Ebing to her favorite passages. He read books on marching. He manipulated boxes of chocolate until they melted in his hands and then maneuvered in ranks of twelve a set of plastic cowboys he had bought from a mail-order house under an assumed name and kept locked away from everyone's eyes during the day. Leonardo's exercises in anatomy proved indispensable. One evening he felt the need for a live model and directed his wife to march around the room.
"Naked?" she asked hopefully.

Lieutenant Scheisskopf smacked his hands over his eyes in exasperation. It was the despair of Lieutenant Scheisskopf's life to be chained to a woman who was incapable of looking beyond her own dirty, sexual desires to the titanic struggles for the unattainable in which noble man could become heroically engaged.

"Why don't you ever whip me?" she pouted one night.