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  1. #1
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    Azor...force sometimes used in a meaningful way can actually stop most issues....

    IF Obama and the emphasis is on the IF...if he had truly launched a massive and specific TLAM attack over a few days to effectively destroy the Syrian AF and their helicopters we would not have seen the following;.....

    1. Russia entering Syria
    2. Assad using 167-200 times chlorine and sarin against civilians
    3. the fall and utter destruction of Aleppo
    4. the eventual fall through the rebels of Assad
    5. a unified rebel effort against IS
    6. no major entry of Iran and shia militias into Syria in the numbers we now are seeing
    7. IMPORTANT...not over 2.5M refugees in Europe and in Turkey and Jordan
    8. the large amount of war crimes...ie starvation....ethnic cleansing...gas attacks...cluster munitions using incendaries against civilians and residential areas...

    BUT we did not see a major strike in 2013 and we have what now????

    Now one can spin the reality of the use of force anyway one wants to but sometimes when diplomacy goes nowhere after three years...measured force is the way forward...

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    Yes open source OSINT can push back....

    Open-source citizen journalists are fighting back against Russian hacking of Western institutions - via @techreview
    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...m_medium=post#


    Problem is MSM never really seems "to get it"....until way to late...

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    Here's one to the shameless liars (including Russian UNSC envoy) claiming the draft res "apportioned blame". Yep, from RussiaToday

    NOTICE the verbiage of "reported use of chemical weapons"..exactly the same verbiage used by Lavrov yesterday in his press conference YET Russia vetoed the SEVENTH UNSC Syrian Resolution.....


    Stall...stall...deflect...deflect.....typical Russian behavior when caught doing something...same in their shot down of MH17.....

    Lavrov calls for an impartial investigation into #SyriaGasAttack

    One hour later: Russia vetoes UN resolution to investigate

    UNSC is effectively no dead just needs to be buried properly....
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    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 04-13-2017 at 07:03 AM.

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    Azor...does this honestly sound like a Russia one can continue to conduct diplomacy with...????

    Don’t You Dare Insult Russia Again!” Moscow's UN Rep Screams in New York
    https://themoscowtimes.com/news/dont...ew-york-57710#

    Time for so called diplomacy with Russia has to be ended as it has not worked a single inch since Georgia...

    Until Putin fully expects a forceful pushback...only then will he pull back...

    AND this is the current WH FP in action...

    In a country where journalists are murdered for their work, Rex Tillerson smiled today when a Russian official (Lavrov) demeaned a U.S. journalist.

    Especially interesting since Lavrov has lied and lied and lied and still lies....

    Tillerson "smiles".....come on????
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 04-13-2017 at 07:08 AM.

  5. #5
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    Putin's lies to cover up the Khan Sheikhoun gas attack
    http://orient-news.net/en/news_show/...n-lies#…

    The Moscow Times‏
    Verified account
    #Russia’s UN ambassador went full gansta on his British counterpart today in New York. “Look at me when I’m talking!” https://themoscowtimes.com/news/dont...-57710#…

    Plus he uses the 2nd person singular, which is extremely impolite in languages like RUS, GER or ESP.
    Not noticeable in English though.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7EJr3qNEZU#…
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    Hands up if you support the use of chemical weapons against Syrian kids
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    Footage
    #Russian Cluster Bomb attack on #JisrAlShughur, yesterday
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mkDvZm5SyA#…
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Here's one to the shameless liars (including Russian UNSC envoy) claiming the draft res "apportioned blame". Yep, from RussiaToday

    NOTICE the verbiage of "reported use of chemical weapons"..exactly the same verbiage used by Lavrov yesterday in his press conference YET Russia vetoed the SEVENTH UNSC Syrian Resolution.....


    Stall...stall...deflect...deflect.....typical Russian behavior when caught doing something...same in their shot down of MH17.....

    Lavrov calls for an impartial investigation into #SyriaGasAttack

    One hour later: Russia vetoes UN resolution to investigate

    UNSC is effectively no dead just needs to be buried properly....
    Russia is isolated though - #China’s abstention a clear signal.

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    Lavrov as the great Russian spin master for Putin.....he truly is in "an altered state of reality if he believes this conspiracy myth"....

    Lavrov:

    - 'We have suspicions that the Nusra Front is being coveted & protected [by the U.S.] in order to march on #Damascus vs. #Assad.'


    SOMEHOW he simply overlooks FSA....and will he finally get on board and use the correct term...HTS....Nusra no longer exists as a name..

    BUT Russian intel has never really been that good...but really weeks.months behind is a bad sign...

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    Lavrov insists OPCW should investigate #Syria CW attack.


    BUT WAIT.....
    Russia said publicly 2 days ago: OPCW reports weren’t worth paper they’re written on.

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    Russian info warfare inside UK hard at work....

    Guess who just became a “Director” of Ghaith Armanazi’s British Syrian Society?

    RT’s favorite Brit, Peter Ford:

    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/o...appointments#…

    Guess who organized the infamous #Damascus “conference” attended by Western analysts & journalists?

    = The British #Syria Society.

    Who's the head of #Syria's chemical weapons program?

    = Amr Armanazi (L)

    Who's the head of British #Syria Society?

    = Ghaith Armanazi (R)

    More info on the Armanazis can be found here: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...ck-fsnkrk6fw#…

    Here: https://en.zamanalwsl.net/news/25201.html#

    & here: http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/04/07/...assad-sarin/#…
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Azor...force sometimes used in a meaningful way can actually stop most issues....

    IF Obama and the emphasis is on the IF...if he had truly launched a massive and specific TLAM attack over a few days to effectively destroy the Syrian AF and their helicopters we would not have seen the following;.....

    1. Russia entering Syria
    2. Assad using 167-200 times chlorine and sarin against civilians
    3. the fall and utter destruction of Aleppo
    4. the eventual fall through the rebels of Assad
    5. a unified rebel effort against IS
    6. no major entry of Iran and shia militias into Syria in the numbers we now are seeing
    7. IMPORTANT...not over 2.5M refugees in Europe and in Turkey and Jordan
    8. the large amount of war crimes...ie starvation....ethnic cleansing...gas attacks...cluster munitions using incendaries against civilians and residential areas...

    BUT we did not see a major strike in 2013 and we have what now????

    Now one can spin the reality of the use of force anyway one wants to but sometimes when diplomacy goes nowhere after three years...measured force is the way forward...
    Back in 2013, we've had plenty of discussions to all such topics - just check the older threads (if they're still around?) - and the near unitary reaction on this very forum was, 'go there if you like, but Syria is not important and thus no issue of the US national interest'.

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    Default To CrowBat RE: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by CrowBat
    Back in 2013, we've had plenty of discussions to all such topics - just check the older threads (if they're still around?) - and the near unitary reaction on this very forum was, 'go there if you like, but Syria is not important and thus no issue of the US national interest'.
    I doubt that a single punitive strike 2013 would have deterred Russia from intervening nor Assad's prosecution of a total war.

    There still would have had to have been a CW deal, probably with Russian brokering, and Russia would have intervened earlier.

    I do believe that Assad would have been deterred from using CWs again, that he would have been more forthright about his stockpiles and production facilities, and that the rebels would have felt that the U.S. cared.

    Now that Assad has minimal supplies of Sarin, punishing him is far less risky than in 2013, when he was on the ropes and could have lost control of his CWs. However, it was certainly riskier in terms of a great power confrontation, given the expanded Iranian and Russian presence.

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    Default My Thoughts on U.S. Intervention in Syria

    Firstly, I was and still am opposed to the U.S. launching a military campaign to defeat Assad and remove him from office. I do not believe that his removal would hasten the war's end or lessen the carnage. The U.S. would also then bear a certain responsibility for the failure of the Syrian state and the continued violence. Nor do I believe that occupying and reconstructing Syria over a period of decades is in the U.S. national interest.

    However, I am not averse to a palace coup wherein Assad is replaced by a more reasonable Alawi leader who would be satisfied with an armistice that involves the creation of an Alawi enclave and the retreat of Alawi forces to this enclave. Such an arrangement would also pertain to the Christian and Druze minorities which are neutral or have been fighting alongside the Alawis. This would reduce the sectarianism of the conflict and allow the Syrian Sunni Arabs to concentrate on defeating Al Qaeda and Daesh, and consolidating a Sunni Arab enclave in the central and eastern parts of Syria. The Syrian Kurds already have Rojava, however, the ethnic cleansing would have to cease and borders demarcated.

    Would Russia be opposed to such an outcome? Probably not, given its history of managing various unresolved conflicts and fluidly transitioning from low-level war to full-scale war to ceasefire. Russia would retain its basing rights in Alawi Latakia and guarantee that the Sunni Arabs did not begin sectarian cleansing against the minorities with whom they have been fighting.

    So who is the gorilla in the room? Iran, which brings me to my second point...

    Secondly, Iran's intervention in Syria is an invasion by any means. Although Iran was invited in by the Syrian government, I regard this invitation in the same light as the Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian Hungarian, Czech and Afghan invitations extended to the Soviet Union, or Italy's invitation to Germany in 1943. Why?

    From the outset of the civil uprising against Assad in 2011, it was clear that most protesters were from the Sunni Arab majority, from the same community that had risen up against Assad's father, and which the Assads had marginalized in the military and civil service, in favor of their own sect. Assad's brutal response to the uprising involved not only turning Alawi intelligence officers and paramilitaries (Shabiha) on the protesters, but also the advice and direct participation of Iranian Revolutionary Guards.

    I cannot see how a leader who is oppressing the majority of his citizens and who is dependent upon minority support and foreign forces, can be considered a legitimate head of state. His invitations to Iran and Russia are about as legitimate in my opinion as any invitations from any other faction in the war.

    Therefore, Iran is an invader, no matter how many Petains or Quislings it can point to.

    Thirdly, there may be a way through the chaos of the Civil War to intervene successfully, by driving out the foreign forces upon which Assad depends upon for offensive campaigns. The Syrian Alawis, Druze and Christians can probably be counted upon to defend their homes and families, but there is mounting evidence that they are weary of subduing the Sunni Arab majority, let alone the Kurds.

    Currently, Assad relies on the following foreign forces led by Iran (20,000 to 30,000):

    • Revolutionary Guards - from Iran (8,000 to 10,000)
    • Regular Forces - from Iran (~1,000)
    • Hezbollah - from Lebanon (6,000 to 8,000)
    • Kata'ib Hezbollah - from Iraq (1,000 to 3,000)
    • Asa’ib Ahl al-Haq - from Iraq (1,000 to 3,000)
    • Liwa Fatemiyoun - from Afghanistan and Iran (2,000 to 3,000)
    • Liwa Zainabiyoun - from Pakistan (1,000)


    Exact estimates of fighting strength are difficult to come by, given casualties and rotations. According to the NCRI/MEK, Iran has cobbled together a force of 60,000 to 73,000, but these numbers seem grossly inflated, and are not supported by the numbers of combatants observed in various pro-Assad campaigns.

    Of these forces, only Hezbollah and Kata'ib Hezbollah are designated as Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs), accounting for roughly 1/3 of the pro-Assad foreign strength.

    I would roughly recommend:

    • Designating the other paramilitaries as FTOs as well as the Quds Force
    • Signaling to all participants that non-Syrian FTOs must depart and that they will be subject to attack if observed in Sunni Arab or Kurdish areas (i.e. outside of Latakia and Damascus)
    • Signaling that the U.S. government has no intention of ousting Assad or allowing Latakia to be overrun
    • Making the Free Syrian Army agree to assume a defensive and static posture
    • Attack any non-Syrian pro-Assad FTO that engages in hostilities against Sunni Arabs
    • Attack any Islamist Sunni Arab offensive into non-Sunni areas (e.g. Al Qaeda's various derivatives)


    This may drive a wedge between Assad and his people, as well as between Iran and its auxiliaries. It will also be an arrangement that Russia and most Syrians can live with, and will not involve the use of U.S. ground forces. Thoughts?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azor View Post
    Firstly, I was and still am opposed to the U.S. launching a military campaign to defeat Assad and remove him from office. I do not believe that his removal would hasten the war's end or lessen the carnage. The U.S. would also then bear a certain responsibility for the failure of the Syrian state and the continued violence. Nor do I believe that occupying and reconstructing Syria over a period of decades is in the U.S. national interest.

    However, I am not averse to a palace coup wherein Assad is replaced by a more reasonable Alawi leader who would be satisfied with an armistice that involves the creation of an Alawi enclave and the retreat of Alawi forces to this enclave. Such an arrangement would also pertain to the Christian and Druze minorities which are neutral or have been fighting alongside the Alawis. This would reduce the sectarianism of the conflict and allow the Syrian Sunni Arabs to concentrate on defeating Al Qaeda and Daesh, and consolidating a Sunni Arab enclave in the central and eastern parts of Syria. The Syrian Kurds already have Rojava, however, the ethnic cleansing would have to cease and borders demarcated.

    Would Russia be opposed to such an outcome? Probably not, given its history of managing various unresolved conflicts and fluidly transitioning from low-level war to full-scale war to ceasefire. Russia would retain its basing rights in Alawi Latakia and guarantee that the Sunni Arabs did not begin sectarian cleansing against the minorities with whom they have been fighting.

    So who is the gorilla in the room? Iran, which brings me to my second point...

    Secondly, Iran's intervention in Syria is an invasion by any means. Although Iran was invited in by the Syrian government, I regard this invitation in the same light as the Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian Hungarian, Czech and Afghan invitations extended to the Soviet Union, or Italy's invitation to Germany in 1943. Why?

    From the outset of the civil uprising against Assad in 2011, it was clear that most protesters were from the Sunni Arab majority, from the same community that had risen up against Assad's father, and which the Assads had marginalized in the military and civil service, in favor of their own sect. Assad's brutal response to the uprising involved not only turning Alawi intelligence officers and paramilitaries (Shabiha) on the protesters, but also the advice and direct participation of Iranian Revolutionary Guards.

    I cannot see how a leader who is oppressing the majority of his citizens and who is dependent upon minority support and foreign forces, can be considered a legitimate head of state. His invitations to Iran and Russia are about as legitimate in my opinion as any invitations from any other faction in the war.

    Therefore, Iran is an invader, no matter how many Petains or Quislings it can point to.

    Thirdly, there may be a way through the chaos of the Civil War to intervene successfully, by driving out the foreign forces upon which Assad depends upon for offensive campaigns. The Syrian Alawis, Druze and Christians can probably be counted upon to defend their homes and families, but there is mounting evidence that they are weary of subduing the Sunni Arab majority, let alone the Kurds.

    Currently, Assad relies on the following foreign forces led by Iran (20,000 to 30,000):

    • Revolutionary Guards - from Iran (8,000 to 10,000)
    • Regular Forces - from Iran (~1,000)
    • Hezbollah - from Lebanon (6,000 to 8,000)
    • Kata'ib Hezbollah - from Iraq (1,000 to 3,000)
    • Asa’ib Ahl al-Haq - from Iraq (1,000 to 3,000)
    • Liwa Fatemiyoun - from Afghanistan and Iran (2,000 to 3,000)
    • Liwa Zainabiyoun - from Pakistan (1,000)


    Exact estimates of fighting strength are difficult to come by, given casualties and rotations. According to the NCRI/MEK, Iran has cobbled together a force of 60,000 to 73,000, but these numbers seem grossly inflated, and are not supported by the numbers of combatants observed in various pro-Assad campaigns.

    Of these forces, only Hezbollah and Kata'ib Hezbollah are designated as Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs), accounting for roughly 1/3 of the pro-Assad foreign strength.

    I would roughly recommend:

    • Designating the other paramilitaries as FTOs as well as the Quds Force
    • Signaling to all participants that non-Syrian FTOs must depart and that they will be subject to attack if observed in Sunni Arab or Kurdish areas (i.e. outside of Latakia and Damascus)
    • Signaling that the U.S. government has no intention of ousting Assad or allowing Latakia to be overrun
    • Making the Free Syrian Army agree to assume a defensive and static posture
    • Attack any non-Syrian pro-Assad FTO that engages in hostilities against Sunni Arabs
    • Attack any Islamist Sunni Arab offensive into non-Sunni areas (e.g. Al Qaeda's various derivatives)


    This may drive a wedge between Assad and his people, as well as between Iran and its auxiliaries. It will also be an arrangement that Russia and most Syrians can live with, and will not involve the use of U.S. ground forces. Thoughts?
    Azor........the rebels for the last several years have stated...push out Assad and then we can focus and will focus on IS as they are not Syrians......

    IF and I use the term IF..if in fact Obama had been willing to completely ground the Syrian AF and their helicopters there would have been no

    1. sarin gas attacks
    2. no chlorine barrel bombs
    3. no barrel bombs
    4. limited very limited refugee flows towards Europe
    5. would have greatly limited starvation...ethnic cleansings
    6. potentially facilitated the removal of Assad

    The key even today is in fact the removal of Assad as the majority of his society the Sunni's demand it..BUT it clashes with the Iranian green crescent objectives....

    Simply stated no Iranian troops and no Russian troops and AF.....should remain in Syria otherwise I hate to say this we will see an actual partition of Syria into an assad zone...a Sunni/Turkish zone and a Kurdish zone setting up conflict in Syria for the next two decades at a minimum....

    That is clear to anyone who had been tracking events in Syria....

    BTW check the posted map which clearly now depicts this green crescent that I have been writing about here since say about the late 2004 timeframe and now in 2017 we are seeing in an accurate map.....the "green crescent".....

    Iraq was and still is the cornerstone........

    BTW...I am after participating in three wars in my lifetime not a warmonger by any means..I believe that diplomacy has it's place but when it fails one must be able and willing to use force to resolve issues...

    Just before heading now to work even on a German holiday as we are tracking a botnet that does not stop for holidays...I just saw a US produced production on Reagan and the Cold War/Iran Contra etc.....as I was in Berlin during those SDI days and the US Pershing and cruise missile debates which then resulted in the INF being signed....

    Interestingly the US pulled out all Pershing's and land based cruise missiles AND stopped SDI THEN in 2015 we learned initially that Putin directly and completely violated INF with no resulting punishment as he feels that hobbled Russia....

    Notice the crescent shape of the map...then expand that crescent into AFG and on to Pakistan....THEN you will notice that it accurately follows the old Silk Trading Road....
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    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 04-14-2017 at 04:06 AM.

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    BTW...no one is applauding for a ground invasion using US just finally and completely provide the FSA the same support the US has been giving the Communist Kurdish US named terrorist groups PKK/Hezbollah...including CAS....remove Assad and then focus completely on IS....letting FSA handle that as it is a Muslim issue not an US issue...

  17. #17
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    OPCW Director General:

    - Preliminary assessments show the accusation of #Assad CW responsibility is “credible.”
    http://wapo.st/2pa2VLi?tid=ss_tw#

    REMEMBER this is the same OPCW that Putin claimed you cannot trust their research BUT then he wanted them to investigate the attack...or so he stated during UNSC debate.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    This CENTCOM spokesman's comments are insane and so is the fact that he was granted anonymity to make them http://thehill.com/policy/defense/32...-afghanistan#…

    THIS is exactly just how naïve this CENTCOM is...in VN the NVA/VC had underground bunkers that resisted shelling's and direct bombing that were destroyed by B52 strikes. of 15tons on three oases that virtually killed most inside those bunkers by blast waves...the same thing is just as easily done in AFG against caves..actually in the end far more effective than a single bomb...

    This shows me that you have a leadership generation that tends to agree with Trumpo's thinking and that is dangerous....there must be a true civilian control of the military not vice versa....

    ALSO explains just how they can overlook the simple facts that they have been arming and training and providing CAs and SOF support to multiple US named terrorist groups inside Syria..the Communist Kurdish PKK...Iranian Hezbollah and Iraqi Shia Hezbollah....
    For Trumpland bombing is back in business. Smart in Syria. Big in Afghanistan. More in Yemen. But bombs can never substitute for a strategic foreign policy in a set strategy.

    Bombing simply covers up that fact as it is again simply a tactical move on the FP battlefield.....kind of like lashing out with no thought behind it to just prove how strong you are....AND that you can go it alone...

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    AND Trump thinks IS is going to go peacefully into history...sorry .......

    Mosul: #US supplied 140 M1A1 Abrams tanks to #Iraq between 2010 & 2012. #ISIS destroyed 47 Abrams tanks during the #Mosul battle.

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