Snipers Sniping & Countering them

[Rifleman]

So, several folks have advocated four long range Riflemen per platoon as being about right. That's twelve for a company.

Now, if you put all twelve Riflemen in one squad under an experienced squad leader for administration and training, and made that squad part of a company weapons platoon, and attached four Riflemen out to each rifle platoon for operations.....

And if the company weapons platoon was led by a warrant officer weapons specialist who had once been an NCO, something similar to the Marine Gunners.....

Just thoughts, just thoughts.

[Norfolk]

So, several folks have advocated four long range Riflemen per platoon as being about right. That's twelve for a company.

Now, if you put all twelve Riflemen in one squad under an experienced squad leader for administration and training, and made that squad part of a company weapons platoon, and attached four Riflemen out to each rifle platoon for operations.....

And if the company weapons platoon was led by a warrant officer weapons specialist who had once been an NCO, something similar to the Marine Gunners.....

Just thoughts, just thoughts.

While we're at it, how 'bout we call them Jaegars?

[jcustis]

And if the company weapons platoon was led by a warrant officer weapons specialist who had once been an NCO, something similar to the Marine Gunners.....

My, my, my. That would be a splendid idea given the inherent complexity of heavier weapons. The difficulty lies in that it isn't easy to grow Marine Gunners. At least in the Corps, there would have to be a significant T/O shift to bring about that manpower change, and I don't know if the computer models could find a way to do it without tearing a hole in the fabric of the infantry. The selection of Marine Gunners is a carefully managed process, from what I know. No room for slackers or grunts who have been "faking the funk," along the way. I imagine there is still a sufficient pool to screen from.

One of the limiting factors is that this Wpns Plt commander would have to complete our Infantry Officer Course (unless a separate course was built up and out of the current Small Arms Weapons Instructor Cource [SAWIC]). Definitely an interesting idea, but the manpower tables are almost too much inertia.

Back to the DM issue, I think retaining this squad or so at the Wpns Plt level indeed makes sense. Keep the weapon something of the 7.62x51mm variety. It keeps another caliber out of the logistics grinder, and in a pinch, straight ball ammunition can be employed. We certainly did so with our M-14s, although every now and then the special "white box" ammo would show up and it was considered a gem to have it due to its ballistic consistency.

If we could go back a bit to what Schuld spoke of, what would we have DMs do? What sort of enabler do we want them to be? It is an important question b/c it means a lot to say that you want a basically-trained grunt to receive additional training on a heavier-caliber weapon and precision optic for the purpose of engagin targets beyond normal riflemen range, and means something considerable different to say you want him to be a keen observer, supporting arms controller, etc.

In order to complete the in-house DM package that FAST Co was running back in the '91-'95 timeframe, I underwent something on the order of a week training in scouting skills (classroom), followed by another 10 days of actual patrolling exercises with a section of DMs, and eventually a 10 day shooting package that included unknown/known distance shooting and field stalks. Considering our employment envelope, I considered myself well-trained.

[slapout9]

Back to the DM issue, I think retaining this squad or so at the Wpns Plt level indeed makes sense. Keep the weapon something of the 7.62x51mm variety. It keeps another caliber out of the logistics grinder, and in a pinch, straight ball ammunition can be employed. We certainly did so with our M-14s, although every now and then the special "white box" ammo would show up and it was considered a gem to have it due to its ballistic consistency.

If we could go back a bit to what Schuld spoke of, what would we have DMs do? What sort of enabler do we want them to be? It is an important question b/c it means a lot to say that you want a basically-trained grunt to receive additional training on a heavier-caliber weapon and precision optic for the purpose of engaging targets beyond normal riflemen range, and means something considerable different to say you want him to be a keen observer, supporting arms controller, etc.

I think this is a better direction to go. If we could create better marksman of all rifleman you would always have a personnel pool to choose from..you-you-you are designated marksman for this mission afterwords you revert back to your original job.

[Rifleman]

While we're at it, how 'bout we call them Jaegars?

Noooo! Few of the son's of the son's of Ulster who killed Patrick Ferguson at Kings Mountain would have identified with that word. I liked your first idea better: Riflemen, since the men with M4s are really modern Carbineers.

Now, what's the matter? Is my signature getting to you again? You know, I could always change it to this for you and Wilf:

"If all else fails, I will retreat up the valley of Virginia, plant my flag on the Blue Ridge, rally around the Scotch-Irish of that region, and make my last stand for liberty amongst a people who will never submit to British tyranny whilst there is a man left to draw a trigger" - George Washington at Valley Forge

Merry Christmas and no taxation without representation!

[William F. Owen]

Now, what's the matter? Is my signature getting to you again? You know, I could always change it to this for you and Wilf:

Hey buddy, don't touch nothing. My wife's grand parents both served time in British jails as terrorists. In fact, her grand parents organisation made several attempts on my grand fathers life!

[selil]

Now, what's the matter? Is my signature getting to you again?

It should be Scots Irish. You drink Scotch.

[Rifleman]

Yes, I've heard that and I understand that Scots or Scottish is the accepted term for people in Scotland. I'm certainly willing to acknowledge the Scots by whatever they want to be called.

But on the North American frontier the Ulster immigrants and their descendants called themselves Scotch-Irish, or "Scotch-Arsh" as my Appalachian grandpa would have said. It's an established term in those circles that goes back a ways:

http://www.scotchirish.net/What%20ab...he%20name.php4

Besides, they started making liquor out of corn almost as soon as they landed so they certainly didn't need to reserve the term Scotch for whiskey.

I reckon we've gone off course a ways, haven't we?

[selil]

I reckon we've gone off course a ways, haven't we?

Yes we have but it was welcome on this cold evening. And, if you had my last name you'd understand the issue.

[Norfolk]

Noooo! Few of the son's of the son's of Ulster who killed Patrick Ferguson at Kings Mountain would have identified with that word. I liked your first idea better: Riflemen, since the men with M4s are really modern Carbineers.

Now, what's the matter? Is my signature getting to you again? You know, I could always change it to this for you and Wilf:

"If all else fails, I will retreat up the valley of Virginia, plant my flag on the Blue Ridge, rally around the Scotch-Irish of that region, and make my last stand for liberty amongst a people who will never submit to British tyranny whilst there is a man left to draw a trigger" - George Washington at Valley Forge

Merry Christmas and no taxation without representation!

Quite agreed on the "Rifleman" title for DMs - "Jaeger" (hehe) was a bit of a wind-up...and it worked! [Norfolk grins to self]

Ahhh, now I know where your true loyalities lie Rifleman...and I have been known to haunt the forests, mountains, and Bourbon distilleries of Appalacha'...but not necessarily in that order - and Bardstown!
I have Scots-Irish (Scotch-Arsh, just for you Rifleman) on my mother's American side - they came to the US rather late, in the 18th century.

I have never had the pleasure of traversing the fair Valley of the Shenandoah, nor the Blue Ridge, but I will take Phil Sheridan at his word that it makes for a rich and quite pleasant foraging ground...

And I do protest your implied assertion, Sir, that the denizens of Westminster are somehow less preferable to their upstart counterparts situated adjacent to Georgetown in handling matters of Public Taxation and Finance. I can discern no benefit to be had by having their lot so close at hand; indeed, had it not been for that Tax Revolt you fellows refer to as a "War of Independence", you might still possess the benefits of a lower tax rate, as what was levied in the Colonies was only a fraction of what was levied in the Mother Country...They after all, had Westminster resident amongst them, and had to pay for their immediate wants.

You see, "Taxation Without Representation" was actually a ticket to a lower Tax Burden than what you have now - with the added benefit of having the leviers of said Burden resident Over There. Hah! Now what do you say of your little Revolution now, eh whot?

But in all fairness, if it wasn't for my 1/8th Scots-Irish ancestry, I wouldn't be the Redneck Country Boy that I am today.

I do have a question for Wilf re the .338 Lapua/8.6 mm: A fine cartridge to be sure, but would the benefits of such a powerful round be unnecessary for a true Rifleman, even in the Skirmishing and Marksman roles - would not something in the 6.5 to 7.62 mm range be quite sufficient? I am concerned because the .338 is not suited for rapid-fire if that were needed, or is there another reason besides range and AP performance for considering the .338 in the Rifleman role?

[William F. Owen]

I do have a question for Wilf re the .338 Lapua/8.6 mm: A fine cartridge to be sure, but would the benefits of such a powerful round be unnecessary for a true Rifleman, even in the Skirmishing and Marksman roles - would not something in the 6.5 to 7.62 mm range be quite sufficient? I am concerned because the .338 is not suited for rapid-fire if that were needed, or is there another reason besides range and AP performance for considering the .338 in the Rifleman role?

All good questions.

a.) 8.6mm has a very flat trajectory. Even I can hit 1 x 0.5m boards at 1,000m.

b.) As concerns "skirmishing" the LRR operator has the same status as a GPMG gunner, except he can sling the thing on his back and carry a carbine. In an Owen Fire Team Group / Platoon, they would replace LMG gunners in the Recce teams.

c.) Unlike a .50, it can be fired from one knee, which becomes an issue in places that have terrain like Cyprus or the Lebanon, or that have long grass.

The reason I have studied the 8.6mm a fair bit is that it gives the platoon a measurable increase in performance for little added weight compared to other systems.

[Rifleman]

You see, "Taxation Without Representation" was actually a ticket to a lower Tax Burden than what you have now - with the added benefit of having the leviers of said Burden resident Over There. Hah! Now what do you say of your little Revolution now, eh whot?

Y'know, I think he's implying that if George III and Cornwallis hadn't been such wankers that I'd be proud to still be a subject instead of a citizen.

But in all fairness, if it wasn't for my 1/8th Scots-Irish ancestry, I wouldn't be the Redneck Country Boy that I am today.

There's hope for you!

Back on topic. I'm interested in hearing what others think about having a single squad of long range Riflemen in a company weapons platoon and attaching them to rifle platoons for operations.

Edson's squad sharpshooters in the 1st Raider Battalion didn't become standardized throughout the Marine Corps. There must be a reason for that.

[William F. Owen]

@ Back on topic. I'm interested in hearing what others think about having a single squad of long range Riflemen in a company weapons platoon and attaching them to rifle platoons for operations.

@ Edson's squad sharpshooters in the 1st Raider Battalion didn't become standardized throughout the Marine Corps. There must be a reason for that.

@ I do see some merit in having different organisations for skills training and operations. The problem is that the unreflective always come out with the train as you fight gibberish - like that's even possible!

@ and it may not have been a good reason. Armies, especially infantry, rarely ever do stuff for good reasons. Emotion and opinion are VERY powerful.

[Norfolk]

QUOTE=Rifleman:

There's hope for you!

The Redneck International (REDINTERN) knows no borders!

Back on topic. I'm interested in hearing what others think about having a single squad of long range Riflemen in a company weapons platoon and attaching them to rifle platoons for operations.

Edson's squad sharpshooters in the 1st Raider Battalion didn't become standardized throughout the Marine Corps. There must be a reason for that.

I suspect that the reason for Raider Squad Sharpshooters not becoming standard in the rest of the USMC may have been the preference to pool specialists at Company level, especially when so much of the regular USMC was involved in frontal-attacks during the Island-Hopping Campaigns. The constant close-combat conditions of Guadalcanal were not quite the same elsewhere I imagine - Iwo Jima, Tarawa, Okinawa, etc.

I think that it is an interesting idea Rifleman, having a Squad of Sharpshooters at Coy level, and attaching them out as needed. Normally I woul say that it would make training and coordination better and easier, and it would be. Now, I'm not certain that would be necessary, or even desirable because the main role of said Sharpshooters as it occurrs to me is to support Platoons and especially Squads during the Firefight. My main concern here is that the Sharpshooters might become distracted from that if held at Company level and attached out from there. I think that I am of two minds on this.

As I seem to understand it, while the Squads are dealing with the close-in enemy (within 200-400 m, or even less), the Sharpshooters are dealing with the enemy behind said close-in enemy (out to 600-800 m, or even more if using the .338 Lapua that Wilf recommends), and that is usually a Platoon fight, but in direct support of the Squads. At times, cover and visibility restrictions will require the Sharpshooters to be attached directly to the Squads. Beyond 800 m really is a Company fight most of the time (and in some cases, much less than that).

But if a Squad of Sharpshooters were held at Coy level, they could form not only a potent Sharpshooting element, but also a very potent Skirmishing and Scouting element as well. In the hands of a skilled Coy Cmdr, they could really ruin an enemy's day (unless that enemy were Mech Infantry or Armour), and only using a fraction of the Coy's forces to do so. Just imagine, for a moment, what trouble a single skillful Sniper can raise for a Company or even a Battalion in some cases. Now just imagine what a dozen or so Sharpshooters (albeit obviously not of Sniper-calibre) could do, especially if their Rifles were capable of automatic fire as well as single-shot. Small teams of expert Markmen with good rifles (heavy barrel, optical sights, and bipod) and unsocial manners harassing an enemy Rifle Company or Battalion a few clicks in front of one's positions, or scouting ahead and to the flanks on the advance, could cause the enemy some consternation. And particularly if said Sharpshooters were able to distract the enemy's attention while our own Company moved to accord them an even warmer reception.

This seems to me to be something a little along the lines of what Ken might thing of (I think that I may be beginning to understand how the Old Dinosaur's mind works, and that frightens me a little!). Great idea Rifleman.

[Tom Odom]

The Redneck International (REDINTERN) knows no borders!

That's why we have mobile homes!

Seriously we did some work on this issue in the Company-level SOSO series of newsletters. CALL Newsletter 06-16 VOL 6 Tactical Marksmanship and Counter Sniper Ops. As it is FOUO you will have to look for it on the CALL gateway. Note also that we made use of a USMC X-File on desgnated Marksmen as well.

Best

Tom